China vs Japan

[KingKaramazov]

I've come to the conclusion that this matchup is actually in favor of Japan.

Say what you like, but I'm convinced it's true. Strong Ashigaru and Yumis don't get auto-owned by disciples, and Naginatas are strong enough to break through the feable Chinese anti-cav as long as they have a little bit of back up.

I've been on the losing end of a few games the last couple of days as China and I really don't think this is an unfair match for Japan at all. In fact, I'd much rather be almost any other civ than China in going against Japan after these last few games.

It's possible that maybe I'm just taking the wrong tactic; maybe it's better to stay in colonial as China versus Japan. But I'm skeptical of that as well. Usually Japanese players can beat me when they are in Colonial and I am in fortress, due more than anything to my crappy anti-cav. How would I be at an advantage in the colonial age, especially since every time I want to make Chu Ko Nus to fight Ashigarus, I need to make relatively useless pikes as well? Plus, Ashigarus actually hold their own, relatively speaking, against all manner of crossbows, including Chu Ko Nus.

I'm not saying this is an auto-win for Japan by any means, but I think this is a matchup that China doesn't have in the bag.

Discuss.

[I__CHAOS__I]

lol

but yeah, don't forget that most people are adapting to the same FF over and over again... eventually they get better.
I think a hard colo rush can criple japan (the way mr Milo rushes with china)
Japan is also one of the strongest civs IMHO, after the sioux/dutch/chinese trio

[Sporting_Lisbon]

If you lose it's because the other guy was better than you, definitely. Just rush - spam ckn and pike forever and ship cards. Keep constant pressure, take down shrines. Use discs always, even if he has ashis - they work as a meatshield to protect your chu ko nus. Use your shipped cav to raid and take down shrines. Make heavy pressure in the beginning and you win. Yet, if he makes it to 8-10 mins of game and he's smart enough to get cav then you have a problem.

[kingchrisII]

a good hard CKN and pike rush with the 9 pike card should be good enough to get there rax down and shrines, before they can get going, also if he beats u back you will have crippled his econ hopefully, and can just lame ckn and pike till he resigns cos of the lame way that china can mass army!

[Navarone_Guy]

I agree with KK here. China's only truly OP thing is their disciple FF. Disciples get completely murdered by ashigaru and naginata kill pretty much anything China can throw at them.

[KingKaramazov]

Wow, I'm actually really surprised Nav agreed with me. Heheh.

Like I said, my point is not that this is an auto-win for Japan by any means, but I do think that this is at the least a fair matchup.

I posted this partially because I was frustrated and wanted to say something about it, but at the same time, I think it's interesting to note because the prevailing opinion seems to be that every single matchup is in China's favor.

BTW Nav, as both a China and Japan player, mind helping me out with that matchup? Haha.

[Navarone_Guy]

Not all matchups are a free win at all for China.

Sioux, French, Japan, and especially Dutch are hard for China. Dutch are on par with China, first of all, and the other civs are both OP and have strong cavalry.

I'd be glad to help you, KK.

[I__CHAOS__I]

according to experts, only sioux is hard for china
people are so used to only "lame" the disc FF they can't do anything else.
But China has many other powerful strats

[Navarone_Guy]

I know. I often fight on colonial; I just disciple FF when against a non-rush civ like Ports or Dutch.

[Sporting_Lisbon]

naginata kill pretty much anything China can throw at them.

That's new to me, nagis killing discs.

[Navarone_Guy]

Disciples are counted as infantry, but not heavy infantry. They therefore suffer from the 1.5x multiplier from naginatas. If the Japanese player can keep up with the disciple FF (which isn't that hard), he can send the naginata multiplier card and if they're upgraded to veteran, they kill disciples in two hits.

[Sporting_Lisbon]

Disciples are counted as infantry, but not heavy infantry. They therefore suffer from the 1.5x multiplier from naginatas. If the Japanese player can keep up with the disciple FF (which isn't that hard), he can send the naginata multiplier card and if they're upgraded to veteran, they kill disciples in two hits.

FALSE. They are light infantry, not infantry there goes the hooray disc killer.

[NEO_CrAz3n]

Hmm, that's strange. I countered them with Muskets beautifully during a deciple rush. In fact I though to myself "HI must be the counter to diciples". I completely stopped it.

[Navarone_Guy]

Ok. If naginatas don't work, then invincible ashigaru should do the trick... Their melee multiplier vs. light inf may not be amazing, but their ranged attack will slaughter anything.

[I__CHAOS__I]

do you people even look up and test units before claiming they do beat other stuff?