Game for review CrAz vs KK

Talk about Strategies and share your Replays here

Moderators: Global Moderator, Age Moderator

User avatar
NEO_CrAz3n
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by NEO_CrAz3n »

OK, this is just one of many, many losses to KK. This time without much computer lag all the way to early Fortress I'm able to hang on but KK got map control and I never got Falcs. I started to lag into Fortress but it wasn't nearly as bad as before with nearly all UI's shut off. I was able to micro units until mid Fortress. I think control groups would help me tremendously and once my comp is up-to-par I'll start working on it.

The low res also doesn't help. I just can't see as much map as I'm used to.

I cannot see any queries with nearly all UI's shut off and I also cannot put cav into melee or change it for any unit for that matter. The options are no longer there without the UI. But it's better than the horrible lag.

KK played great though and was very aggressive, took the entire map and boomed. I just wish I had gone heavier on hussars and gotten falcs earlier and dropped a second TC. I could have done all three. I had the wood at one point and traded it. Bad move.

I def made some mistakes...

No map control
Raiding could have been better
trading wood = bad
no Arty
Aged to Fortress too fast
Once in Fortress didn't drop TC (No boom)

I know these because I watched it immediately afterwards but any help is much appreciated.

GG KK
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." -Groucho Marx

"Any strat that beats me is lame." -CrAz3n

"Quoting yourself is just as bad as speaking about yourself in the third-person." -CrAz3n

ZoRPrimE
Major
Major
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Limassol, Cyprus

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by ZoRPrimE »

Zorp Review:

Very nice aggression early on Craz3n you over commit the extra 5 skirms in the end but it was good bullying of those yumi's. They think there so Hot!

A lot of skirmish's occur outside your front door. in one of the early battles you have reutyrs and your focusing on getting his damiyo down. A very valid objective unfortunately KK gets most your reutyrs down and your skirms back off before he goes down. Sure enough when KK's army moved I saw his damiyo sitting still like a statue, a sure sign that he's got unit's queued up in the damiyo. A good tactic here might be a classic Navarone micro play. Hit em with skirms pull back get his troops engaged with you and in the meantime have your r3utyr hitmen circling around back and targeting the damiyo. There is a lot of psychological warfare value in bringing in your 2nd brigade around back. Commanders go into scramble mode to respond and it cost them some cycles.

You did a great job of micro'ing the next conflict in your base. You get your fort placed without having the wagon shot down with an army of yumi's next door. Unfortunately those Yumi's are far more siege capable than I expected. They had your fort down in seconds before it could even be halfway built.

game is at 18:55 minutes and a lot of interesting things are going on.
KingK has 3 TP's and one building, he is building his 3rd Rax and has 2 Stables already. KK is aging to 3 finally he's stayed in colonial all this time. KK's age 2 Naginata/Yumi army is outside Craz3ns front door.

Craz3n's troops catch LOS of KK's Naginata and fire upon em. Craz smelled weakness and made the call to charge at KK's Yumi's. after a few seconds of fight Craz wisely retreated his now small but effective army to meet up with his hussars that were due any second. Unfortunately this 2nd army isn't as effective. The Hussars go out the front gate of craz's base like all the rest of the troops this game and are smashed early on with focus fire and muskets in the Yumi ranks.

All througout it seemed that both of you would have been better off to have got some cannon earlier in the game. KingK of course had 'hand' as George Costanza would put it, so he didn't need cannon to turn the tide he just could have probably broken the Craz3n back earlier in the match!

Craz3n fought well in this match KingK's micro and presence of mind earned him the win. He's definately one of our better 1v1 players in the clan and I have never beat em. Craz3n's level of play is definately stepped up since I played against him last. Craz even pulled out most military this game which is hard to believe after watching the giant mass of KK's Yumi's all game.

Game Note: KingK was effective at placing a few villies and buildings towards the edge of his base so had Craz flanked his base he could see it coming. Craz did send a few hussars very late game after the tide was likely unturnable.

A few things Craz and I have in common in our losses against KingK is lack of map control, building enough rax/stables to take advantage of our resources, and KingK is just better than us right now!!

Ok no time to spell check or re-read gotta meet peoples for lunch. Thanks for posting game craz was fun to watch and review.
"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind

User avatar
NEO_CrAz3n
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by NEO_CrAz3n »

Nice review, thanks.

I agree with everything you said and one thing I realized after the game was that KK got 8 upgrades to my one (Cav upgrade). Which was really a waste because I didn't mass the hussars. I got no economic upgrades at all.

I would love to see a guide for upgrades. When you get certain economic upgrades and why. I am always behind in upgrades in games I lose, always. That's a sign for sure. I would really love to see an upgrade guide that guys, including me, could even add to and have an ongoing discussion about. I think it would help some players realize when they are valuable, when they aren't. It would be invaluable.

I dropped a market soon after reaching Fortress but used it to trade that wood instead of getting upgrades.

Yeah, KK and Strokey are map hogs, they always get the map on me. I should have been more aggressive.

Thanks for the review Zorp, it was actually an interesting take on the game and entertaining.
"Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." -Groucho Marx

"Any strat that beats me is lame." -CrAz3n

"Quoting yourself is just as bad as speaking about yourself in the third-person." -CrAz3n

KingKaramazov
Brigadier
Brigadier
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by KingKaramazov »

About upgrades:

When you age up, upgrade the units you are using as soon as possible, that's half the point of aging up.

Upgrade trade routes when you need to get resources from them instead of experience...but upgrade them in a timely fashion regardless.

Build a market sometime early in the colonial age and get upgrades for the resources you are gathering the most of. As Asian civs, since the early upgrades are so cheap, just get all of those as soon as you can, without interrupting villager or military production. Market upgrades are very useful.

If you have a few market upgrades it's as good as if you had sent a couple economic cards. This is part of why economic cards are not as useful in 1v1s because you can just get market upgrades more quickly without wasting a shipment. 1v1's rarely last long to take full advantage of most economic upgrade cards. But anyway, that's off-topic.

Really getting upgrades is about remembering to research everything and managing your resources so you get the upgrades in a timely fashion without slowing down unit production.

About map control:

Playing against Drew and Nav has taught me that failing to take control of as much of the map as possible results in losses - often pretty one-sided ones. Never let your opponent take over the map unchallenged.

Craz3n has gotten better about this - in our more recent games he has raided more often with Hussars and been more aggressive. He still tends to use towers and other defenses as a crux though, which ends up hurting him. I think one good way to improve is to try your best to ween yourself off of the use of any kind of static defenses besides perhaps some strategically placed walls.

Trying too hard to defend one section of the map tends to make it a lot easier for your opponent to take over more of the map.

Lastly, on Deccan especially, make sure not to allow your opponent to just take TPs with impunity. There are 5 TPs on that map. You do NOT want your opponent to get the majority of them, and not only because they could do trade monopoly on you at an inopportune moment.


Final note:

My yumis took down that building fort so easily because I had sent the +33% infantry siege damage card 8)
"Why are some people all grasshopper fiddlings, scrappings, all antennae shivering, one big ganglion eternally knotting, slip-knotting, square-knotting themselves?  They stoke a furnace all their lives, sweat their lips, shine their ey

User avatar
NEO_CrAz3n
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by NEO_CrAz3n »

Thanks KK. That's a lot of useful information.

One reason I dropped the fort where I did and didn't run it away was because they were archers. I didn't think for a second they'd drop that fort like they did. The fort would have really helped me later when those cannons came.

Great point about 1v1's and economic upgrades/cards. I was told (a long time ago) never get a market in Colonial but to drop it ASAP in Fortress. That hurt me for sure. No wonder you're able to get to IV like you do. I think if I follow some of what you said I'll have a stronger late Colonial/early fortress.

Thanks KK, great post
"Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." -Groucho Marx

"Any strat that beats me is lame." -CrAz3n

"Quoting yourself is just as bad as speaking about yourself in the third-person." -CrAz3n

ZoRPrimE
Major
Major
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Limassol, Cyprus

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by ZoRPrimE »

oh yeah,
You shoulda played India!!

tisk! tisk! tisk!
"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind

User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

nice game guys

what I wanna add is: Craz, you need to work on your build order a bit, you can get much more out of the Dutch early on.
You had enough resoureces for a bank early on (before II even) and didnt use your first shipment (forgot or on purpose?). Shipping 700food so early was also not needed.
Overall you seem to have a good and solid gameplay, and if you practise a bit on the early BO, your results will improve by a lot!
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle

User avatar
NEO_CrAz3n
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by NEO_CrAz3n »

Thanks CHAOS,

Yeah, it was purposely done. I just need to drop the banks earlier like you said.

What card would you have taken instead of 700 food? I'm always short food so I figured that card would give me a boost. You're right, I guess the bank wagon. That way I can just put more on food.

Thanks again CHAOS
"Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." -Groucho Marx

"Any strat that beats me is lame." -CrAz3n

"Quoting yourself is just as bad as speaking about yourself in the third-person." -CrAz3n

KingKaramazov
Brigadier
Brigadier
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by KingKaramazov »

Good start for Dutch is thus:

4 vills to start on gold
rest go on food until aging up till colonial
keep vills on food while aging up, age up with 400 wood
send 700 wood when you get to colonial
send bank wagon after that


doing that, you should have enough food and enough wood to make 3 banks and then build a 4th with the bank wagon, giving you a pretty decent economy.

that's the foundation of the standard 4 Bank FF which is so strong.


to zorprime:
sadly I've given up on India...too frustrating. :? maybe when they get patched.
"Why are some people all grasshopper fiddlings, scrappings, all antennae shivering, one big ganglion eternally knotting, slip-knotting, square-knotting themselves?  They stoke a furnace all their lives, sweat their lips, shine their ey

ZoRPrimE
Major
Major
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Limassol, Cyprus

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by ZoRPrimE »

Also your bank wagon whenbuilt practically gives you enough xp for another shipment right away. So it's almost a free shipment.

And I say Tisk! Tisk! because you didn't even try to win a non-practice game with em!! Were you losing that bad in practice games?? Or just to Harley and Drew?
"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind

User avatar
NEO_CrAz3n
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by NEO_CrAz3n »

It was because of lag too.

I play KK more than anyone. I lost to him, Harley and Strokey.
"Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." -Groucho Marx

"Any strat that beats me is lame." -CrAz3n

"Quoting yourself is just as bad as speaking about yourself in the third-person." -CrAz3n

KingKaramazov
Brigadier
Brigadier
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by KingKaramazov »

Zorp, it was just a general feeling I got from all the games I've been playing. That feeling that I wasn't playing nearly as competitively as I could be with pretty much any other civ.

For a while it was fun trying to learn a really difficult and pretty UP civ, but eventually that feeling started to detract from my desire to actually play, and that's when I decided it was time to switch.

Maybe if they get boosted sometime soon I'll pick them up again.
"Why are some people all grasshopper fiddlings, scrappings, all antennae shivering, one big ganglion eternally knotting, slip-knotting, square-knotting themselves?  They stoke a furnace all their lives, sweat their lips, shine their ey

severebeating
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:26 am
Location: Edina, MN

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by severebeating »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]About upgrades:

Build a market sometime early in the colonial age and get upgrades for the resources you are gathering the most of. As Asian civs, since the early upgrades are so cheap, just get all of those as soon as you can, without interrupting villager or military production. Market upgrades are very useful.

If you have a few market upgrades it's as good as if you had sent a couple economic cards. This is part of why economic cards are not as useful in 1v1s because you can just get market upgrades more quickly without wasting a shipment. 1v1's rarely last long to take full advantage of most economic upgrade cards. But anyway, that's off-topic.[/quote]

KK,

Good input that actually answers a question I posted today under Ports thread.

Thanks

User avatar
sector_7g
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:27 am
Location: England

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by sector_7g »

nice game, I think its like chaos and kk said just work on BO at start thats where the ground work is done with dutch if u get it right its the platform for the game, heres my 2 pennies worth
1- 1st card must be sent asap 3 vill or food trickle
2- nice starting crates so only needed 3 vills on gold
3- no need chop 2 wood at start all on food
4- u collected 4 cows but didnt put them near tc till late that saves u 700f card
5- dont fight with explorer hes valuable and should be scouting kk s base to when he drops stables
6- y the 8 pikes u didnt no he had stable up ::/
and u coulda took out his 2 forward unprotected houses
i would follow wot kk said as BO and u def need mrkt in age 2
O and i agree with no need for tower that wood shoulda been spent else where
rest of ur games fine mate just the start needs a polish :-P

User avatar
Mercury_J
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:55 am

Re: Game for review CrAz vs KK

Post by Mercury_J »

I can't download the game, any ideas anyone?? It says that windows cannot find a program to use for it...

Post Reply