Elephant effectiveness

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RascalJones
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Elephant effectiveness

Post by RascalJones »

Played in some xp farming games last night to get my India HC up to level 25 so I could get the Distributivism card. Anyway, after XP was maxed, we just duked it out. Things I found in regards to Elephants.

(Remember as an xp farm game, this game started out in post-imperial, so all upgrades were in effect)

Flail - late game, they melt like butter to Samurai. Don't know how effective they really are.

Siege - eh, not all that impressive, 5 of them can one-shot a lot of buildings, though.

Mahout - nice against Light Infantry, VERY weak against the Samurai and Nagintas (surprisingly).

Howdah - Boy, did I underesitmate these bad boys. They saved my can in that game. They kill EVERYTHING.......except buildings.

I just wish I had put some Mansabdars in my deck, I didn't think we'd fight it out, and without wonders, you can't get the Mans.

More later.

PS... Gurkhas are way UP.

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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by Cyclohexane »

Samurai are one of the most cost effective counters to elephants in the game (and ability to stay alive to other things). They get a 1.75 multiplier versus cavalry and a 1.15 multiplier versus elephants. Since elephants are tagged cavalry and elephant, Samurai get a 1.75*1.15 = 2.01 multiplier with a very high base damage, nice hand armor, and nice hit points (ability to be upgraded - compared to pikemen). Disciplined Samurai will be doing 60 damage per hit with a ROF of 1.5.

In a game like that, as India, your opponent will expect elephants. Surprise them with a wave of light infantry first.
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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by RascalJones »

That was the PS.....Gurkhas are UP. The Howdah's hit the Samurai harder than the Gurkhas seemed to.

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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by KingKaramazov »

Ghurkas are decent early game but they really lack a punch as the game progresses due to low base damage / hp and a lack of arsenal upgrades (so they always have x2 vs HI not x3)
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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Ghurkas are decent early game but they really lack a punch as the game progresses due to low base damage / hp and a lack of arsenal upgrades (so they always have x2 vs HI not x3)[/quote]

Ghurkas are not UP. Here are the positives:

1.) You get a useful hit and run skirmisher in Age 2.
2.) Disciplined get an additional +1 range (to 19) and LOS (to 25) on top of the 20% HP and damage
3.) Honored get an additional +1 range (to 20) and LOS (to 26) on top of the 30% HP and damage
4.) Exalted get an additional +1 range (to 21) and LOS (to 27) on top of the 50% HP and damage

You do not pay anything extra for those upgrades. So if you think they are bad late game, let’s compare in Industrial:

Skirmisher:
Cost: 50 Food 65 Gold (183 VS)
HP = 180
Damage = 22 (44 to HI and 66 with CIR at 200W 200G and arsenal)
Range = 20
Armor = 30% ranged
LOS = 24
Siege and melee damage as well as speed is the same

Gurkha:
Cost: 70 Food 50 Gold (188 VS)
HP = 172
Damage = 24 (48 to HI and no CIR possibility)
Range = 20
Armor = 30% ranged
LOS = 26 (will see enemy earlier)
Siege and melee damage as well as speed is the same

I agree they do not have the counter infantry rifling technology that most civilizations have but that does not make them useless. I mean look at the Aztecs for killing HI, they have the pathetic maces (also no CIR) and have to depend on light cavalry to kill light infantry! But the Aztecs are considered an average civilization.

I agree a Gurkha is weaker than a skirmisher because of available HC shipment / technology upgrades, but it is still a useful unit for killing HI. As an Aztec player, I am jealous of the Gurkha. No, the problem with Indians is deeper than Gurkha.

I understand some elite individuals can make India work, but I have a feeling that they could absolutely own with Spain, Dutch, Iro, or Sioux. Indian elephants need a population reduction and an increase in shipment rate. I haven’t played them in any real games so I cannot comment more than that but just looking at the stats makes it obvious to me that anyone wanting to play India wants a challenge.

Considering India is the only civilization without a stealth unit and without any type of arsenal upgrades, they should have some other advantage. I am not convinced elephants are that advantage when they also have to sacrifice cannons (also nice for killing HI).

I haven’t played much India (as them or against them), is HI the way to kill them late game?
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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by RascalJones »

I'm not good enough to tell you that. I believe Culverins counter Siege Eles.

I'm not sure pikes & halbs can hold up, but Samurai definitely can.

As most of India's units are cavalry, though, and Gurkhas are the only counter to HI, it may be your best bet.

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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by Navarone_Guy »

I didn't know veteran/honored status increase gurkha range! Interesting...

Anyway, howdahs and mahouts are forces to be reckoned with.

Siege elephants are worthless. They cost 700 resources, do 100 damage to artillery, 400 to buildings, and 40 to everything else. They have 30% ranged resist and die to light infantry, heavy infantry, cavalry, light cavalry, literally everything. The only thing they're remotely good for is anti-buildings.

As for flail elephants, they're all siege and nothing else. Amazing ranged resist, but such low HP it doesn't matter that much.

I haven't played with elephants enough to really know, so I may be wrong.
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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""RascalJones""]I'm not good enough to tell you that. I believe Culverins counter Siege Eles.

I'm not sure pikes & halbs can hold up, but Samurai definitely can.

As most of India's units are cavalry, though, and Gurkhas are the only counter to HI, it may be your best bet.[/quote]

Siege Elephants have the following proto file tags: Light Cavalry, Artillery, Siege Elephant, Elephant.

Since they have the artillery tag, culverins will counter them with their multiplier. Sounds ridiculous but they do not have the cavalry tag. That mean pikemen type units do not extra damage to them. Although the elephant tag means samurai will get a 1.15 multiplier. Nothing else besides samurai counters elephants directly. Everything that counters cavalry will also counter elephants since most elephants are considered cavalry.

The only exception here is the Sufi Mosque War Elephant. It is missing the elephant tag (only tagged as cavalry). This is a bug.


[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]I didn't know veteran/honored status increase gurkha range! Interesting...

[/quote]

Then you may not be aware of these:

Disciplined Zamburak (India) adds an additional 2.25 bonus towards artillery. This is also a bug since the in-game text reads something along the lines of 1.25. Either the text or the multiplier is wrong.

Disciplined Keshik (China) add an additional 0.75 bonus towards artillery (1.75 multiplier).

Also, Japan’s first artillery upgrade of flaming arrows grants an additional x1.5 bonus to artillery.


I think this is an excellent method to balance units that would be to strong early, but need help later in the game. For the most part, balance was done right in TAD. I just think there are a few glaring problems that if I was a balance tester, would not have missed. But hey, I know all about schedule and budget problems…
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Re: Elephant effectiveness

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

I agree they do not have the counter infantry rifling technology that most civilizations have but that does not make them useless. I mean look at the Aztecs for killing HI, they have the pathetic maces (also no CIR) and have to depend on light cavalry to kill light infantry! But the Aztecs are considered an average civilization.
Exactly, aztecs have the same problem but it gets somewhat fixed by ERKs with fire pit war dance and boost cards. India doesn't have that and the best counter (lategame) to HI is sepoys :\


p.s. but Wacko said that is gonna be fixed in next patch, in spring

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