Math time

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blayzer13
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Math time

Post by blayzer13 »

I finally decided to look at the comparison between ashigarus and the british musketeers.

for the purposes of my math,
british muskets costs 75f 25g, have 26 attck and 172 health
ashi cost 80f 40g have 32 attack and 170 health

the british are in age 2 and have sent both the hp and the attack cards
the japanese are in age 3 with the golden pavilion ranged attack upgrade and the 10% bonus from isolationism at the consulate.

my main idea was to come up with spamability and effectiveness.
it originiated from watching a musket spam game vs a typical japanese ashi spam where the british was the victor.

I hope to find that the british muskets will be economically more effective than ashi's.


first off im going to find out how much villager seconds each unit costs.

British musket:
75f/(.89f/s)+25g/(.5g/s) = 134.2697 villager seconds

Ashi:

80f/(.89f/s)+40g/(.5g/s) = 169.8876 villager seconds

clearly british muskets cost less villager seconds to create, but is more efficient to use one? I think so...

here i am going to take the amount of villager seconds and divide it by the attack and health of the two given units and get an idea of how many villager seconds you spend for one attack/ one hp to further prove that musketeers are the more cost efficient, spammable and effective unit.

British musket:
134.2697 villager seconds/26 attack = 5.1642 villager seconds/1 attack
134.2697 villager seconds/172 hp = .7806 villager seconds/1 hp

Ashi:
169.8876 villager seconds/32 attack = 5.3089 villager seconds/1 attack
169.8876 villager seconds/170 hp = .9993 villager seconds/ 1 hp

in conclusion, the british musketeers are all of the following, more spammable, effective and cost efficient


let me know if theres a problem with my math (idk how good it is at 11:30 at night lol)

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Re: Math time

Post by Soccerman771 »

I'd wonder the difference between Brit Musks and Sepoy's too. I was going 1v1 with a Brit who had Redcoats (age IV) and I had age III Sep's (just hadn't upgraded them yet) and was beating him due to better micro.
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Re: Math time

Post by RascalJones »

If only someone had a "Unit Comparison Spreadsheet" somewhere.


;)


Cyclohexane, please report to the General Strategy Forum.

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luukje
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Re: Math time

Post by luukje »

Somebody tested this on the editor. It got as a result that the musket units with the best attack where much more cost efficient by surviving longer. This got the conclusion that ashigaru even without the many upgrades perform better. Russia muskets suffer the most.


http://agesanctuary.com/index.php?porta ... pic=107903

to conclude the comments on agesanc: brits musket spam winning vs japan musket spam = brit just the better player

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Re: Math time

Post by rufio_eht »

also consider collections rates, cost of collection rate upgrades, availability, walking time.

i think more importantly consider the number of shots required to kill, in other words, a few extra hp or attack points might calculate better, but if the killing blow involves extra or wasted shots, it screws ur math from behind.
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Re: Math time

Post by blayzer13 »

yeah since ive been thinking about it, theres too many variables...oh well i tired

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Re: Math time

Post by Cyclohexane »

One note above, you Ash vill seconds are wrong since they cannot collect at hunting rates. It is better to compare all with berries since it is a good base rate (you never really get 0.84 with hunting because of walk time anyway).

If you include speed, range, HP, resistance, population, VS cost, damage, ROF, and armor (much the same), here are the results in Fortress:

Dacoit
Pistolero
Sepoy - Mansabdar
Fusilier
Tomahawk
Musketeer (Russian)
Musketeer (all others, RG dont come into play till later)
Janissary
Sepoy
Highlander
Ashigaru

The Ashigaru performing better without looking at other items such as collection rates (more vills, shrines, etc.), fish booming, etc. These are just the raw numbers compared all with the same formula generating a qualitative number. I also did not include anything special such as cards, in industrial (when RG comes into play), insane micro, or other technologies such as lacrosse.

However, my Unit Comparison sheet will do all these things very easily (well I cannot compare micro of units or economy) and give you a good idea if something is OP or not. For example, pre-patch I included Eagles in light infantry because they were performing just as good (actually better) than most light infantry! If you have questions of how to use the spreadsheet (must apply a filter after set attributes to compare), or just a request with specifics to compare, I can shoot it out very quickly.

Before someone comes screaming, I know there are more variables such as micro and special civ bonuses, it is just a general guideline. While not perfect, it does predict accurately.
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Re: Math time

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Ashigaru base stats suck. Period. Except for speed. Speed only starts braking out things when the first upgrades arrive for ashis: consulate and ashigaru attack already gives them 32 attack. They can now chase dudes and be very strong while jap eco is OP as well.

If we take this things away Sepoys are way better. Sepoy kill xbows in 6 shots, send 25 sepoys and click attack move and just see xbows flying.

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Re: Math time

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]Ashigaru base stats suck.[/quote]

8O

Boost em !! ;)

I think the speed is always a very usuful thing, they can run away from their counter very easily
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Re: Math time

Post by Navarone_Guy »

I think the speed is what makes them slightly OP. Light infantry are supposed to be able to use range to their advantage, but when the heavy infantry easily outrun them and have 12 range... it just isn't possible.
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Re: Math time

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Boost em !! ;)

I think the speed is always a very usuful thing, they can run away from their counter very easily
Hehe it's the truth. 26 attack is the same as 25 attack, I think there are only very few cases were the number of shots to kill is fewer. Now their hp. 170 hp, that means they have less than 20% more hp than musks, (while having less than 20% more attack) and it also means they have 20hp less than sepoys when they have the same attack!

Ashi vs Xbow
Shots to kill the Xbow: 5
Shots to be killed: 9

Sepoy vs Xbow
Shots to kill the Xbow: 5
Shots to be killed: 10

Let's underline that Sepoys cost more food than Ashis and are therefore cheaper. And btw Ashis suck at killing cav in mellee.

So Ashis' stats with no upgrades suck except for speed that makes them shine, that's what I meant :D

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Re: Math time

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Ummm... are we forgetting their heap of upgrades?
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Re: Math time

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

So Ashis' stats with -no upgrades- suck
Of course Ashis are OP, I was just regarding the part where ashis are too pricey for their attack and hp unupgraded. This doesn't apply after a few upgrades of course.

ES balance says that it doesn't matter that something is UP if it has something OP to balance it on.

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Re: Math time

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

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Re: Math time

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

He compared it with a Yumi, Yumis are better at countering HI because of range. And Ashis are stong because of their speed, as I have said 5 times I was saying that despite speed Ashi's stats sucked.

Also, he forgot that it happens with ALL musk units when compared with xbows, that's why xbow/pike loses to musk/hus when it shouldn't.

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