N3O Age Of Empires and Starcraft 2 Clan

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]Here is another interesting one I seen, good old Barack Hussein Obama will not hold his hand over his heart during the national anthem either.[/quote]

I really don't see what the problem is with that ... we have a prime minister that sang the wrong anthem (the one from France) song when asked to sing ours. Ok, it's funny, but has little to do with political skills or programs they stand for. Yet people tend to highlight these peanuts too often.
It has all turned into a reality TV show, and it makes me sick.

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
Here is another interesting one I seen, good old Barack Hussein Obama will not hold his hand over his heart during the national anthem either.
[/quote]

How many Average Joe's don't even take their hat off at ball game when it's played/sung? How many people don't even stand up when the flag passes by in a parade? Granted, most of them are just lazy, not being obstinate.

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
It is definitely interesting why he picks and chooses what customs to observe. The flag may only be a piece of f a b r i c, but many men and women died protecting the meaning of that f a b r i c - freedom. The freedom for all of us to go to hell in any method we choose Perhaps the meaning has changed for many and that is the source of his rebellion. Perhaps, but as a presidential candidate, there are certain customs that should be followed.
[/quote]

Reminds me of the old Janis Joplin song Me & Bobby McGee (Kris Kristofferson actually wrote it)

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
It is also interesting why Barrack supporters frown on you when you say his middle name. I mean, it is what it is. My name is Jacob and it is based on a Christian name. Assuming free elections are possible in Muslim countries, I'm pretty sure that would be held against me if I ran for office, especially the most important office in the country.
[/quote]

Especially since Jacob was Isaac's son, since Isaac and Ishmael are supposedly where the split happened between the two paths of faith.

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
I think Fox news is definitely biased based on the fact they would not let Ron Paul into their debates despite him beating Rudy Giuliani and raising more campaign contributions from individual contributors (many supporters) than any of the other candidates. He may be Republican, but was definitely not mainstream. They gave the excuse that there was not enough room on the bus. I think his reply was something along the lines of not with the size of their egos. Cazy old uncle in the basement or not, he is definitely the most interesting of the candidates to drop out. [/quote]

Except he hasn't dropped out. He's actually more Libertarian than Republican, though, and will probably end up being the Libertarian candidate on the ballot in November.

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
All media is biased because it is created from biased reporters. Just look at this thread, everything said in here is based on biases created from childhood. It is impossible to create something completely un-biased. It would be nice, but the more extreme the candidates, the more biased reports we will have.

As far as Che Guevara goes, one countries Patriot is another countries terrorist. As far as I remember, this is an American office he is running for.

For me, it is between Obama and McCain. McCain really scares the hell out of me when he stated we can be in Iraq for another hundred years. Even if taken out of context, we cannot afford to fight that long. Russia went broke fighting the same enemies, it is not possible to win. Wining requires changing the mindset of people from hundreds of years of bias. It will not happen and you cannot kill them all.

Obama also scares the hell out of me with his democratic liberal domestic issues.
[/quote]

I was thinking about this earlier. It seems that the liberal-minded folks all want government to stay out of their personal life. Let me do what I want to do. "If it feels good, do it." They don't care if they're paying higher taxes, "IT'S FREEDOM!" And when they end up in trouble, they expect the government there to bail them out with all the agencies funded by the tax dollars they've brought in. (I expect MANY flames on this one.)

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
If I have to choose between these two, I’m going to have to do more digging (or flip a coin). If it comes between McCain and Clinton, I’m going McCain hands down. At least I have an idea what McCain will do, I have no clue what Clinton #2 and #1 will be up to.
[/quote]

Vote 3rd party! Granted, your 3rd party of choice would be taking away a vote from the "more conservative" of the two major parties. (I put that in quotes, because honestly some times it's hard to tell them apart.)

Cyclo, both parties do dirty things.

My point is, the Republicans are far BETTER at it. I actually wish the Democrats were more talented in that regard! They might get elected more often!

I think focusing on stuff like whether Obama wears an American flag on his lapel or whether he puts his hand over his heart during the national anthem is frankly a bunch of bullsh*t. What should matter is his ideas, his views, his plans, his abilities...not how much he tries to appear patriotic while on camera.

Maybe he doesn't do it strictly because he doesn't want to use patriotism and flag waving as a political tactic, like the current administration has been doing for the last 8 years?

"If you're against the war you are against the President, the troops, and you are against America" etc etc.

cyclohexane wrote: It is also interesting why Barrack supporters frown on you when you say his middle name. I mean, it is what it is. My name is Jacob and it is based on a Christian name. Assuming free elections are possible in Muslim countries, I'm pretty sure that would be held against me if I ran for office, especially the most important office in the country.

Are you honestly saying that you think his middle name SHOULD be used against him because it's not Christian based??!?!

You know, it doesn't say anywhere in the Constitution that the President has to be a God-fearing, American flag waving, rich-born-and-bred man with a purely white-caucasian-sounding-western-european-christian-based name.

I really don't see what the problem is with that ... we have a prime minister that sang the wrong anthem (the one from France) song when asked to sing ours. Ok, it's funny, but has little to do with political skills or programs they stand for. Yet people tend to highlight these peanuts too often.
It has all turned into a reality TV show, and it makes me sick.

LMAO I saw that one on TV it was hilarious!

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""][quote=""Soccerman771""]
To your second point, we in the US don't see it that way. If he wants to help the poor, the help the poor through legislation. He hasn't done that.
[/quote]

So you (in the US) think Che was a mass murderer???

[quote=""Soccerman771""]The point of journalism is to report un-biased news. CNN is by far leftist. It promotes the left agenda. ABC, NBC, and CBS do the same. Fox comes close, but tries to hard to lean right, IMO. I just want people to report the news. I can draw conclusions myself...
[/quote]

I still need to see something un-biased coming from Fox... or any other media.[/quote]

Him being a mass murderer isn't the point. The point is he supports that flag (country, idea) and not the US flag (country?, idea?).

I would agree with you on the media thing. I want to interpret the news, not have someone do it for me. All news media is biased towards a group that pays the bills and their beliefs. It's part of being in the capitalist system.

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]As far as I've seen the only clearly and substantially biased news network is Fox. They don't even attempt to cover it up. It's pretty funny, actually.

I know Fox didn't plan the flag, but focusing on something as insignificant as a flag that happens to be hanging behind a desk in one of Obama's campaign offices (likely which has nothing to do with him...but even if he personally put it there, I wouldn't care) is the kind of thing they LOVE to do.

Just like when people were reporting on how Obama was educated for a short period in a Muslim school in Indonesia. It's completely irrelevant, but they love to play on people's fears and judgments.

BTW Soccerman, Republicans LOVE throwing dirt and using scare tactics. It's the thing they are BEST at. So don't pretend like it's just the Democrats who do it. The Democrats would be elected more often if they were better at dirty / slick campaign tactics like the Republicans (re: 2000 + 2004 elections).[/quote]

Throwing dirt is a matter of opinion. I don't truly believe it's possible to win elections this way though. However, I will say that the past is in favor of the Democrats rigging elections, ala George Parr...

The problem is that Democrats have so much dirt on themselves it's hard to distinguish which to throw... 8O

How can you say obama doenst support the US? He is running for president of the US? Do you actually think somebody that goes through life hating the US, and all it stands for then goes on to become president?

If there were a mass of these kind a flags on his rallies, then you got a problem. If the flag was in his car, then you got a problem. Then you could consider "is there a serious relation between these flags and the opinons of this candidate"?

If you dont like obama or dont like his views and opinions, just say so. But not the flag laying around 1.000 miles from him. Or the middle name. If you cant trust anybody named hussein, its a bit sad. Maybe they would held it against you in some countires when you are named Jacob. I guess around palestine you would not be to popular. But in The US, the land of the free, It shouldnt matter.

You cant blame obama for not emphasising that middle name, that would make it to easy on Hillary or McCain to connect him with the "isnt he a little bit to close to muslims to trust?"

I know elections is very much about trusting your candidate. It's more than just sharing opinons, its about having that gut feeling 'thats my man" (or woman). But if you are honest with yourself, that feeling shouldnt come from that flag lying around or from his middle name.

Is Obama the man that lead the US? Or is it Hillary? Or McCAin? That is the real question. The people that have allready picked sides will throw dirt, but dont let that be your guide, I think.

It seems that the liberal-minded folks all want government to stay out of their personal life. Let me do what I want to do. "If it feels good, do it." They don't care if they're paying higher taxes, "IT'S FREEDOM!" And when they end up in trouble, they expect the government there to bail them out with all the agencies funded by the tax dollars they've brought in. (I expect MANY flames on this one.)

Actually I dont mind having to pay taxes as long as they are spended according to my own opinion. And not wasted. Health care is a human right for everyone. A human life has its twist and turns, and when your down, you are happy there is someone there to bail you out. Wether it is friends or family, or the governement. There is so much we cont control in this life.

Getting a lifetime disease. Having an accident and being disabled after that. Getting a kid thats disabled. Having your home blown away by a hurricane. Some old people stay healthy and then just die overnight. Other people need medical care for the last twenty years. Nothing to do with freedom, just reality.

Do you really want those people lining up on your local church hoping for some warm soup or second hand clothes? Because with a bit of bad luck, it could be you or your children.

Nobody likes taxes, nobody likes it when some guy is vegetating on wellfare, or some bureaucrat sitting on his desk doing nothing, but there is a lot of misery in this world.

We probably are all part of the 10% rich peolpe on this world. Sharing a bit of our wealth isnt so hard?

Luukje for president !!

I really wanted to reply to some of these comments earlier but work has been so crazy lately, I've been eating in meetings.

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
Are you honestly saying that you think his middle name SHOULD be used against him because it's not Christian based??!?!

You know, it doesn't say anywhere in the Constitution that the President has to be a God-fearing, American flag waving, rich-born-and-bred man with a purely white-caucasian-sounding-western-european-christian-based name.[/quote]

Absolutely not, that would go against the very things I believe in. I’m just making a point that religion is taken into account on presidential candidates. It was for Mitt Romney, but for some reason, his Muslim ties are ignored on Obama. The fact that his middle name is Hussein is that, just a fact. Why do Obama supports cringe when you say it?

I will admit to taking everything into consideration though. Not placing you hand over your heart is not a sin, but it’s a break of tradition. Why would he refuse? It makes me wonder what he is really thinking when he gives those eloquent speeches.


[quote=""luukje""]For many young people in europe (and I think all over the world) Guevara is a hero freedom fighter, a symbol of the fight from oppressed ordinary humans against cruel, corrupt and violent dictatorship, supported by big western multinationals and covered up secret services. I dont know what he really was, but again it keeps on surprising me how vastly different the opinons on the same facts can be be when you are discussing with US people.

Obama wins again. Can clinton come back? Does anybody wants her to come back?

Obama vs McCain, who will win?[/quote]

I do not think Obama is stupid enough to support this flag in his office. I imagine the guy that hung it is already fired. I mean, ask any Cuban running to America and kissing the ground when they get here what they think of Che Guevara. Che Guevara is a Marxist Communist supporter who murders capitalists. Since I happen to believe in Capitalism and that money is not evil but what you do with it, I am not impressed. Just because there are a bunch of morons who will believe he is a hero freedom fighter, does not mean I am going to jump on the band wagon and join the new fashion.


[quote=""luukje""]How can you say obama doenst support the US? He is running for president of the US? Do you actually think somebody that goes through life hating the US, and all it stands for then goes on to become president?[/quote]

I did not say that and I do not believe that. However, I would not say that it is not possible, just highly improbable. Do not place faith in politicians, thats what God is for. Trust in God but lock your doors right?

Do not take that as McCain is the solution either. I do not trust either of them as far as I can throw them (about 6 foot). My choice is leaning more towards McCain because I do not believe raising taxes and pulling our troops out is a wise decision. I want the troops out, but not like that, and not without a reduction in government spending, not an increase. He just seems to be the lesser of two evils.



[quote=""RascalJones""]
Except he hasn't dropped out. He's actually more Libertarian than Republican, though, and will probably end up being the Libertarian candidate on the ballot in November.
[/quote]


When I read this, I thought differently:
Click on Message from Ron (2/8/08)
I made my little commentary about it above in one of those threads. He really disappointed me in this decision. I'd rather he spent that money and lost than keep it for running for Congress...


[quote=""RascalJones""]
I was thinking about this earlier. It seems that the liberal-minded folks all want government to stay out of their personal life. Let me do what I want to do. "If it feels good, do it." They don't care if they're paying higher taxes, "IT'S FREEDOM!" And when they end up in trouble, they expect the government there to bail them out with all the agencies funded by the tax dollars they've brought in. (I expect MANY flames on this one.) [/quote]

What bothers me is the fact that both Clinton and Obama think healthcare is the number one issue in America. They quote numbers like 13% of all Americans do not have insurance but I’d like to point out that no health insurance is not the same as no healthcare. Is this really the biggest problem of democrats?

There is a book, can’t think of the author right now but calls the Obama followers the “Legions of the Blissful”. He inspires us in his speeches. You’ve got old wisdom versus young naivety. Has he came up with something new to show us change? Let’s talk real issues, not inspiration. I’m old enough to realize that being inspired and being impressed is a lot like comparing infatuation (or lust) with true love. The infatuation ends, and you’re left with something you really do not want. I do not get inspired easily anymore.

I keep hearing change thrown around but no solutions. Raising our taxes to pay for others healthcare does not seem encouraging to me when I work my a$$ off and always seem to be strapped for cash. Of course I realize that I am still fairly young and building wealth does not occur overnight. I wonder what the percentage of people supporting this plan actually invest their money and create a budget for such things. I do, and I donate to charities monthly. I do not want my charity giving to the government to misuse and mishandle. I’ll share my wealth how I see fit, not how the government decides for me! Didn’t we try this right before the Great Depression?

I have a cousin, whom I love, but is not the smartest tool in the shed. He unfortunately was recently diagnosed with a brain tumor. It was cut out and he seems to be doing fine now. He did not bother to pay the $70 a month for health insurance so his current healthcare is weak. You can buy a plan with a high deductible and low monthly payments that would cover you in extreme circumstances like this. Most Americans can afford it but would rather drive a new truck or big screen TV instead. The fact is, the majority of those 13% can afford it but make questionable life choices. When I say questionable, I mean stupid. Granted that insurance would be limited, but that would keep you alive. So I’ll repeat, health insurance is not the same as healthcare. The Democratic candidates do not seem to understand that, or are purposely spinning the truth.

So what am I getting at? We have bigger issues. America has plenty of enemies.

China could destroy our economy (and theirs since we are #1 customer) if they decided to collect their trillion dollar dept we are in.

Russia is increasingly more and more being controlled by communists.

Then let’s not forget the Muslim extremes that have already declared a Jihad against the Western world.

If you want to call it fear tactics, that is fair, I agree some Republican politicians stretch the truth. I’m not a moron, I can see this to, but that does not make the threat any less real.

The truth of the matter is, the war in Iraq has been ever increasingly more successful and the current surge of forces is working but you will not hear about that on TV. I want the war to end and everyone live happily together but that is never going to happen. I want to hear an educated exit strategy but neither of the current candidates has any logical solution (Republicrates or Democrans). Instead of focusing on a solution and working together, we are arguing about healthcare and homosexuals, etc.

When I say we, I’m not referring to us, but to U.S.


And now for some humor:

All I have to say is, I think there are a great deal of stupid people who vote for Republicans based on sentimental beliefs, just as there are for Democrats...your cartoon was amusingly true until the last part.

Just think of all the religious conservatives who vote Republican without even considering the real issues. That's stupidity.

Voter-stupidity is a sad reality on both ends of the political spectrum.



I'm still rather conflicted concerning the election.

I'm sick of all the social conservatism, rabid flag-waving over-Patriotic nonsense, fear-mongering, and fiscal irresponsibility of the Republican administration over the last 8 years. I'm sick of the government being dominated by tight-lipped, Constitution ignoring, Bible-thumping bureucrats. Most of all, I'm sick of the politics of this country always being divided so strictly between the two parties.

At the same time, I am against the idea of any kind of increased spending in the government. I want a President who will deal with the deficits. Those deficits, and our horribly inefficient government benefits programs, are the BIGGEST PROBLEMS facing our country today.

I don't want a ton of tax cuts, especially for the rich, but I don't necessarily condone tax hikes either!

I want a President who will work with both parties to get things done, and who won't treat anything that comes from the other party as completely irreconcilable with his own views and goals. Each should not act is if everything the other party does is in direct opposition to what they are doing.

I don't know what to think about health care, but I don't think universal health care as envisioned by Hillary or Obama is necessarily the right answer!

I don't want to pull out of Iraq immediately, but I DO NOT think we should stay there for 10 years, let alone 100 years. I want to see something done in the most strategic and safe manner possible, but I want to see us out of there. The Iraqis will learn to stand on their own much faster if we do not give them the idea that we are going to be there for them forever. The political capital we will gain with the rest of the world for not continuing the war will also be very useful in the future.

I want a government that protects us from things that actually threaten us, and doesn't endanger us unnecessarily by meddling with things that do not. I want a government that doesn't ruin our relations with the rest of the world. I want a government that has a fiscal AND environmental policy that has an eye not just towards the present, but also towards the future.

As for the President, more than anything, perhaps, I want a President I can believe in, be inspired by, and be proud of. I wasn't old enough to really be politically conscious before the era of George Bush, and I have no idea what it's like to really feel proud of the leader of our country.


I must admit that I am really unsure which candidate has the best chance of approximating all of those desires.

I'm hoping the election is between Obama and McCain, because I think either one of those options will probably work out for better rather than worse. I do not trust Hillary and I do not think she will be a change for the better.

I also think the US need a president that can unite the different factions of your country. And not pretend everything is black and white. The "you are with us or against us" might sound good in an election speech, but just doenst cut it in the real world.

If I think on 8 years of Bush, he has gotten the US into a war it can not win. Unless you are prepared to fight on for another 100 years. A war started for all the wrong reasons. It has made the world more unsafe for the US. Unlike afghanistan, where there were gains for the western world. Where you were fighting real enemies. Iraq has created enemies.
I also feel you just cant pull out, the US has a responsability towards the citizins of Iraq. There wasnt a war with islam on 12/9/2001. There was a small faction of conservative islamic extermist targeting the US as symbol of progress and freedom. Bush did all he could to start a war with the rest of islam.

8 years of bush has made an enomous deficit. The rich got richer and the poor got nothing. The bush administration was looked indebted to the corporations that funded the campain. In reurn those corporations were allowed to parasite on your governement finances. For all the better of their shareholders,

Bush has alienated former allies for the US. Here in Belgium we felt the US was the land of a million dreams come true. THe land of the strong and the free. Now that image has changed. The US is the land of ultraconservative christian minorities, a land of obese people, of rednecks driving around in monstertrucks caring next to nothing about the environement, where lawyers will sue anybody fo anything, a land of homeless people, of illigal immigrants stopped by a wall on the mexican border.

The US was for Europe the younger, fitter brother. We might be a bit more educated, but o boy, that brother could rock when he wanted to.

But over the last 8 years something has gone wrong. Its getting more difficult to find simularities.

In europe we always had our traditions and cultural differences complicating everything. The US seemed the land of unlimited progress. And that balance seem to have shifted.
While we are carefully constructing something resembling a united states of europe (and that aint easy), the US looks full of diverging powers, and stark contrasts (sorry for my english grammar).

I think a president needs to restore some unity. Not the flag waving, chest beating kind of unity, but something deeper.

Luukje,
I appreciate your sentiments, but I respectfully disagree on almost every one of your points.

There is no one who is going to unite the different factions of the U.S. There are too many pieces to the puzzle, and they just can't be fit together. We need to learn to live with disagreement and with the fact that every action we take will offend someone but we need to move forward anyway. On important issues, compromise is a concession of somebody's priniciples.

The war in Iraq was not started for all the wrong reasons. I didn't agree with starting the war, but it was started to rid Saddam of WMDs (a bad term needing a new name). Everyone thought he had them - Clinton, Kerry, Russia, Britain, etc. It's curious that you think Afghanistan was a "good" war.

Islam didn't target the US as a symbol of progress and freedom. They attacked the US because we were fiddling in the Middle East, and Osama was ashamed that Saudi Arabia allowed us to step in and defend them.

Bush has been spending money like crazy. However, he didn't create the deficit, Clinton didn't end the deficit, and the next guy won't end the deficit either. It's curious that Enron gets berated for inflating earnings during the Clinton years, but Clinton gets no blame for touting inflated tax income that was based directly off of the inflated corporate earnings. The tax receipts of the late 90s were a scam just as corporate earnings of the time were a scam.

Bush has not alienated former allies. Our "former" allies (in truth - they are "current" allies if I'm not mistaken) began hating us long ago, and they will hate us in the future. The world will not suddenly love the U.S. because Obama is in office.

"We might be a bit more educated." That is silly European arrogance speaking, which I will ignore because there is plenty of silly American arrogance that gets touted as well. Let's just say that, while the American education system is not perfect, the differences in education between Europe and America are not as great as advertised, and in many cases favor America.

Your laundry list of problems beginning "rich got richer..." and ending with "wall on the mexican (sic) border" are 1) just your impressions, and 2) have nothing to do with Bush. We were litigious before Bush, the wall has not been built and Bush wants to integrate illegal aliens into the U.S., 3) the "ultraconservative christian minorities" have never been weaker in the U.S. than they are today, and homelessness in the U.S. is a very small problem. Don't know what our homelessness is compared to Europe, but I do know that our poor are far better off than the European poor, our unemployment is lower, and our median income is higher. I would rather be "poor" in the U.S. than anywhere in the world. Also - regarding the "environment" - our air and water are far cleaner than Europe's, and with a few exceptions Europe has not put their money where the rhetoric is regarding CO2 emissions, which is about the only environmental issue where Europe is even marginally better than the U.S.

The world is a very old place, and many of the issues you seem to believe are recent have in fact been around a long time. I wonder whether you were politically aware in the late 70s. Read some of the literature from the 70s about world population and natural resources. The notion that the world has regressed and that things used to be better is an old notion, and yet things just keep getting better.

Peace - and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

The only thing I'll say about the U.S. vs. Europe thing is: "When was the last time Europe did something significant to help the U.S.?" As soon as they step up to the plate to assist us, then Europeans can complain about the way we do business...

We divy (sp?) out more charity than anyone in the world.

The only thing I'll say about the U.S. vs. Europe thing is: "When was the last time Europe did something significant to help the U.S.?" As soon as they step up to the plate to assist us, then Europeans can complain about the way we do business...

We divy (sp?) out more charity than anyone in the world.

[quote=""Soccerman771""]The only thing I'll say about the U.S. vs. Europe thing is: "When was the last time Europe did something significant to help the U.S.?" As soon as they step up to the plate to assist us, then Europeans can complain about the way we do business...

We divy (sp?) out more charity than anyone in the world.[/quote]

you can't compare europe and US imo

and that charity quote is just rofl, that's totally pointless and imposible to messure/compare.

My opinion on the matter is that US is trying to profile itself as world dominator, and the wars are a clear example of that. That fact alone is enough to create hatred towards the US by the rest of the world. The sad thing is that this gets incorrectly reflected on the US citizens, although most have nothing to do with it.

Anyway, I doubt much will change, politicians (all over the world) have short term visions, for the simple reason that long term will not concern em