USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

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RascalJones
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USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by RascalJones »

So, Mitt Romney is out. That leaves McCain, Huckabee and Ron Paul on the Republican side (yeah, right. That leaves McCain, with a Huckabee running mate). The other side is a bitter Obama/Clinton tightly contested race.

I'm not impressed by any of them. Why are our "options" so bad? Why has it come to this? That leads me to be more for Obama than any of them (of the viable candidates, Ron Paul has some great ideas, but he'll never make it), and I've not traditionally been a Democrat.

I think a Clinton/McCain contest would be so anti-climactic, it's not funny. They're both deeply rooted in Washington politics that with either of them, it'll be the "same old, same old". Obama seems to have great charisma, if not great experience.

What do we need? How can these be the BEST choices for keeping the American way of life safe, and making it better?

I'm so disillusioned by it all.

What about all of you from places other than the US? When you vote, are you as generally disillusioned by your choices? Is the process that much different?

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

as Belgian, I don't think anybody can be more disillusioned about politics lol. ;)

What I find really weird about the US system, is that canditates from the same party bash each other really hard to take the top spot.

Here in Europe, people seem to like Obama a lot more than any of the others, at least that's the impression I get from talking to others, reading papers, watching news etc... He's so different from Bush, who is absolutely not popular over here.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by KingKaramazov »

I would really love to see the race be between McCain and Obama. That's the only scenario in which I can actually imagine having to think about the decision I make in terms of who to vote for.

If Hillary is the nominee for President, I'll vote McCain, hands down.

I'd like to see Obama more than anybody else, honestly. I really hope he gets nominated, too, because I have a feeling that if Hillary goes against McCain, she's going to lose, and Republicans will have the White House again. She's too easy for Republicans to bring down, simply because she's so polarizing. McCain will get all of the votes of Independents like myself.

I'm not a huge fan of McCain because of his stance on Iraq, but overall he is more of a moderate character than anything else, and his willingness to deal with Democrats and Independents to get things done is extremely refreshing compared to the current administration. I just don't see Hillary doing that. She'll probably be a liberal version of Bush in a lot of ways, and that's not what I want to see.

We'll see, though.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""RascalJones""]So, Mitt Romney is out. That leaves McCain, Huckabee and Ron Paul on the Republican side (yeah, right. That leaves McCain, with a Huckabee running mate). The other side is a bitter Obama/Clinton tightly contested race.[/quote]

I think Romney will now vie for the V.P. spot, but would rather have Huckabee.

[quote=""RascalJones""]I'm not impressed by any of them. Why are our "options" so bad? Why has it come to this? That leads me to be more for Obama than any of them (of the viable candidates, Ron Paul has some great ideas, but he'll never make it), and I've not traditionally been a Democrat. [/quote]

First I'll say I've always voted Republican. I think Clinton is by far the most left-wing candidate we've had in a long time. I would prefer Obama as well.

[quote=""RascalJones""]I think a Clinton/McCain contest would be so anti-climactic, it's not funny. They're both deeply rooted in Washington politics that with either of them, it'll be the "same old, same old". Obama seems to have great charisma, if not great experience.[/quote]

I don't think w/McCain it would be the same old, same old. I for one would like to go back to having someone that's served honorably in the military to be Commander In Chief. He tends to reach across the aisle more than any of the other's that are running on either side. However, I think he's more independent than he is right or left and I think that that could be very good for the country. I think Obama is too experienced for the job, but wouldn't mind him in a few years.

However, I'd much rather a Governor be chosen than a Senator, and it looks like only Senator's are left.

[quote=""RascalJones""]What do we need? How can these be the BEST choices for keeping the American way of life safe, and making it better?[/quote] You hit the nail on the head. There is no way these are the BEST choices. They are the ONLY choices. As the old saying goes, those with the money make the decisions. What we need is someone that will look out for the middle class, which is by far the majority of Americans. Not cater to the poor or the wealthy. Until life gets better for the middle class there is no incentive for the poor to change and the wealthy can do what they want.

Something that's always bothered me (slightly off-topic), but why is it that a company that revenue's say a hundred million dollars has layoffs, but the CEO gets a raise and there is no penalty for doing things like that?

[quote=""RascalJones""]I'm so disillusioned by it all.[/quote] Not hard to do. That's why I didn't go into politics or do very well in it in college.

[quote=""RascalJones""]What about all of you from places other than the US? When you vote, are you as generally disillusioned by your choices? Is the process that much different?[/quote] I'm from the US...:)

What I don't understand really, is why is everyone so against Bush? I know why the Democrats hate him, but why does Europe, South America, etc.?
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

Rascal,
After you brought up Ron Paul to me, I did some research on him and the presidential choice is extremely easy.

Why is he not electable? Because of what the main stream media says? I’m not going to go into what I think about the morals of the media, but you get the idea.

Don’t the people still have a choice in these matters or are we to trust the electoral college to make all our decisions? Ron Paul is an excellent American and I would gladly follow him. I agree with the majority of his views from education, taxes and the economy, to the war in Iraq.

There is no way in hell I would vote for Clinton or Obama. They both preach change and whoever said change is always good is greatly mistaken. Is defining marriage between 2 people instead of a man and woman a good change? That would essentially give anyone equal chances for adoption instead of a man / woman couple. It is sickening to me and so unfair to children. That is change, there are many examples of very bad liberal changes on the way.

How about these tax hikes for the "rich". Well, before jumping on the bandwagon, I wish people would ask how do democrats define rich. Above the poverty level? So anyone that makes over $35,000 a year is rich? So my money has to go to a healthcare system that we cannot afford to pay for lazy Americans or illegal immigrants? Whatever happened to the strongest will survive? Now we protect our stupid and even reward them with millions of dollars (who doesn’t know coffee is hot)!

I pay enough taxes as it is. I love Ron Paul’s idea to eliminate the IRS. One thing this leads to is a smaller government, another is no one can cheat on their taxes since everything will just cost more. That means illegals, drug dealers, rich, and poor will all be paying their fair share. Tax cuts only boost the economy if they are accompanied by decreased spending. He has some dam good ideas and radical ideas are exactly what we need. Your not going to solve today’s problems using the same way of thinking that got us into them in the first place.

My wife is an immigrant. I know all about our screwed up immigration laws that make it dam near impossible for someone to do things legally. It took my wife approximately 10 years to get her citizenship! 10 years and that was with a lawyer and a legal marriage. There are so many illegals in Texas it is unreal. The majority of them do not pay taxes or downright cheat allowing relatives to claim their children or just paid under the table. It happens so frequently, it is impossible to catch even 1% of it. I'm not going to mention salaries or go down that road, but with what I make, and some people I know personally make without taxes, is about equal. How the hell is that fair when I’ve spent about 10 years in school and worked my ass off my whole life?

Fixing the healthcare system is as easy as removing the 20 million + illegals leeching off our good will and fixing illegal immigration is easy. It is impossible to deport or even 100% secure our borders, but it is easy to make it non-profitable and that is by changing the tax laws to increase the tax on everything we buy but remove the income tax (and the IRS). For those of us that do things legally, nothing will change in your net worth. You might see a price increase on crack once drug dealers start paying into the system though…

This liberal point of view is driving our country into the dirt and I’m starting to think it is a mental disease. Maybe it is all the prescription medications being handed to our children like it is candy, I don’t know. But if Hillary or Obama is elected, we are going to be a world of hurt. A democratic congress and president, not to mention some Supreme Court judges that are due to retire soon. Do we really want them appointed by these fools?

Don’t get me wrong, I do not like McCain either. He is what I call a Republicrat (or Democran). So many of his views are liberal and the fact that he is a war hero is irrelevant to me. I give him credit and thanks for his sacrifices in a Vietnam prison, but how is that relevant to leading a country? Hell, the military despises him for his voting record. Who is he now, not what was he 40 years ago.

If you want positive change, go research Ron Paul and make the decision. Do not write him off yet. He is still getting tons of money donated from private individuals and gets more hits on the internet than all of the other candidates combined yet he is ignored in the mainstream media. He was even ignored in the Republican debates.

I can only imagine that the reason this is the case is because he does not owe enough favors to those in power. The guy is a genius and is really our only hope. I am voting for him no matter what. If it takes away a vote from McCain, who cares. The differences between McCain, Clinton, and Obama are slight. So McCain is against abortion, is he really going to do anything about it? Ron Paul was a licensed gynecologist (M.D. not crooked lawyer), abortion appalls him, as it should all humans.

If you do not want to drive the country into poverty and want a solution to the war, none of the candidates besides Paul has an answer. Russia went broke and collapsed for the exact same reasons we are. Do you think history will not repeat?

The choice is crystal clear for me. I am going to vote for the best man, and that is Ron Paul. If Ron Paul was a black woman, then he would be getting the attention he deserves but I have not given up hope on this country yet.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by StrokeyBlofeld »

Arnie FTW.

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

Sorry for the long post above but I don't have anywhere to vent. I'm not allowed to talk politics at work and my wife is for the most part in line with my views. Here is a really good eye opening article on illegal immigration I found that discusses the topic outside of the U.S.

Salute the Danish Flag! - It’s a Symbol of Western Freedom

I just love how so many Americans are ignorant, or arrogant enough not to think the world's problems will not be theirs one day. Learning is not compulsory and neither is survival.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Soccerman771 »

Why don't you tell us how you really feel Cyclo? Great post. If I thought R.P. would be nominated and electible based on my vote, I'd go that way. However, I won't take away a vote from McCain to let Obama or Clinton win. That's how we got stuck with Jimmy Carter.

I love't this paragraph:
Cyclohexane wrote:Fixing the healthcare system is as easy as removing the 20 million + illegals leeching off our good will and fixing illegal immigration is easy. It is impossible to deport or even 100% secure our borders, but it is easy to make it non-profitable and that is by changing the tax laws to increase the tax on everything we buy but remove the income tax (and the IRS). For those of us that do things legally, nothing will change in your net worth. You might see a price increase on crack once drug dealers start paying into the system though…
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by BashUgood »

IMO...

Regardless of who becomes President the problems that exist in this country USA/World will not dissappear, amongst all the Presidents that have come and gone things are still deplorable. It more or less is a choice of who will do the less damage.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

Great post Cyclo, I learned a lot of new views on the matter.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

I'm cheering for Obama too.

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]I'm cheering for Obama too.[/quote]

Judging by the fact that you are posting in this thread, I assume that you have been researching the issues and understand what is at stake. Based on the fact you stated that you are cheering for Obama, and not just allowing the lesser of two evils (i.e. Clinton the second), I am assuming that you have some valid justification. Would you care to elaborate? I enjoy learning from other people point of view.

Unfortunately, the main reason I hear people wanting to vote for Obama is because of his race. Now I respect the fact that Obama has never directly used this card in his deck but there are many people so brainwashed with affirmative action thinking it is the right thing to do (when it has to really sting the subconscious mind knowing competition is not a factor) that they would give away the most powerful position in the world. Many people think that having a black president will empower "African Americans" (a term I find disrespectful by the way considering they are American) giving them hope where none existed. I find that ridiculous considering there are so many successful Asians living in our country. I cannot recall a Chinese American president (not yet at least, in another 50 years we will all be black, speak Chinese, and go to Mosques :) ).

More handouts = more governmentally dependent people = larger government = more government waste. Most, not all, but the majority of Democrats prefer larger government and if handing out a little money will earn votes, well that seems to be the campaign promises. I love how politicians tell you we are going to spend the government’s money. Why don't they tell the truth and say we are going to spend your money?

I'm not getting onto you, I would just like to know what it is about this man that would earn your vote. I will agree that he is charismatic, young (in comparison), and an eloquent speaker. However, his liberal views on the important issues are suicide for this country.

McCain is not much better and will be business as usual, but the changes Clinton and Obama are suggesting will send this country into a recession (or worse) if 100% applied. Our country is in dire need of a president that is the first to be something. That is not first black president, or first woman president, but first honest president. Ron Paul believes in the Constitution and Bill of Rights and offers positive change. His voting record is always exactly what he says. He doesn't at first vote for the war, then against it when the constituents are displease (i.e. Clinton). There will be no surprises or broken "Read my lips" promises.

The choice between Obama and Clinton for me is like choosing a firing squad over hanging. One is slow and painful while the other is fast, but the results are the same.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

just curious about your opinion on this Cyclo (if you mind sharing ofc):
does the president really has anything to decide? or is there a massive organisation behind it that manipulates and rules no matter who is elected?
The real power is there where the money is (at least in capitalist systems)
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""RascalJones""]

What do we need? How can these be the BEST choices for keeping the American way of life safe, and making it better?

I'm so disillusioned by it all.

[/quote]

By the way Rascal, I feel your pain. I am completely disillusioned myself. Even a little depressed as to what is happening to our country, our culture, and our way of life.

One man, or should I say person, cannot change these things, but it shows you what we represent and where we are going.



[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]just curious about your opinion on this Cyclo (if you mind sharing ofc):
does the president really has anything to decide? or is there a massive organisation behind it that manipulates and rules no matter who is elected?
The real power is there where the money is (at least in capitalist systems)[/quote]

I have no idea about the president being a puppet to be controlled and manipulated by larger forces. It certainly seems like it sometimes when we have a president that cannot spell potato but like any position of power, there are consultants and advisors. I have read about conspiracy theories such as "Skull & Bones" but I do not place much faith in them. I do not think there is anyone forcing the hand. Perhaps dangling a carrot over the head, but not making their decisions. I mean, why do candidates spend millions of dollars campaigning on a position that pays $200,000 per year?

The real power is where the money is because that is who is voted in. For some reason, we vote for these Dynasties (Bush 1, Bush 2, Clinton 1, Clinton 2, etc.). Maybe because that is all that is reported on and we are left with the lesser of two evils all the time (i.e Bush versus Gore). But in a free press, you would think the system would not be so one sided in the reporting. If anything, money can definitely buy advertising and / or smear an opponent. The voting system has flaws, but I do not think it is possible to outright cheat.

Yes, money = power but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Money can be put to good use. The only way to change the way our money is spent is through voting. Unfortunately, money also equals advertising and the amount of educated people completely ignoring the preliminaries is amazing. They will get most of their information from TV instead of researching themselves. They will vote for the most charismatic candidate, like one that can play the saxophone on Arseneo Hall.

That means they are basically told what to think while allowing viable candidates without the Dynasty last name to be ignored. So I ask you this, who is really the puppet?
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]The real power is where the money is because that is who is voted in. For some reason, we vote for these Dynasties (Bush 1, Bush 2, Clinton 1, Clinton 2, etc.). Maybe because that is all that is reported on and we are left with the lesser of two evils all the time (i.e Bush versus Gore). But in a free press, you would think the system would not be so one sided in the reporting. If anything, money can definitely buy advertising and / or smear an opponent. The voting system has flaws, but I do not think it is possible to outright cheat.
[/quote]

You do know about George Parr and Box 13 in Alice, Texas right? And that wasn't that long ago...

Your question about puppets is a very good and valid one. The problem is though that most people don't care about the collective good. They are only concerned with events/laws/"things" that directly effect them and are good for them. I don't buy into conspiracy theories either, but most people don't realize how much more power Congress really has than the POTUS.
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