N3O Age Of Empires and Starcraft 2 Clan

I think next Tuesday. This Tuesday seems a bit optimistic.

I heard somewhere that around the 25th was the most likely time (one of the ES8 said something to that effect, probably inadvertently).

OK,
I just read through the pages of patch changes and the pages of comments and I have a few of my own. Overall, I like the patch, I think it will bring balance to the game in many aspects but a few of the changes have me scratching my head.

Ranged Infantry
So versus all cavalry units, skirmisher types will do 75% damage and versus light calvary / eagles, they now do x2 damage? What I do not understand is that light cavalry is also cavalry, so the x2 multiplier is canceled out (2 * 0.75 = 1.5). The bonus to light cavalry remains the same except against eagle knights (not cavalry), so they will get a x2 bonus against them (who was really crippled as it is).

Pets
No idea what this means

Guardians
Do they mean guardians, or friendship converted pets? Do they mean only human guardians? Will need to test this later.

Spy
Thank ES for these changes. I hate spies with a passion. Long live the minor native rush. Who said France did not receive a boost? This will stronger cavalry and better HI defense in colonial, France is going much stronger.

Field Hospitals
Unless the building can heal, what is the point? It still heals only 3 HP per second 1 unit at a time. So what, it takes a little longer to destroy it. It should heal at least 10 units at that rate in the same radius (20 range). Nice try, but it is still a worthless building, use that 200 wood (and required shipment of surgeons) on something beneficial.

Now for the civs…

Aztecs
Was only the Aztecs water dance nerfed? Iroquois have this dance and the Sioux have the Siege dance (much more effective on water, they just don’t have schooners). Is it to be different for different civs? Offshore support was nerfed and Thyloc canoe BB tech already moved to Age3. I’m not following this change.

Eagle Runner Knights were hit hard. From 15 to 12 damage (and from 17 last patch). Especially when combined with fire pit and no ruthlessness. Say good by to this unit except versus extreme cavalry usage. Not to mention, it seems LI will get a x2 multiplier (when only x1.5 versus dragoon type units – see comments above as to why).

The boosts to maces should have came with a reduction in their colonial cards. They are going to be very strong in Colonial, but still weak as hell late game (when the cavalry comes out).

Overall they are boosted big time. The fertility dance is a big hit but their warrior priests are going to spawn much faster which will make up for it. An even trade. Eagle Knights are much weaker in damage, cards, and firepit, but they now have units to fill those gaps. It will still be a tough civ to play, but their Colonial is much better and Fortress just different.

Britain
Well at least Britain has 1 good Fortress politician now and their RG hussars will own after a few upgrade cards. Very well balanced army, just don’t over boom in Colonial!

China
I always ignored China (never played as them or against them) but the changes were necessary. I just hope they can compete. Seems they were hit very hard.

France
No changes my a$$. The lower base damage of spies and the multiplier to minor nates left the dame means spies will only be doing 20 damage. At 125 gold a pop, not a very effective counter to minor natives. Say hello to the minor native rush for France. Especially deadly on Hispaniolia!

Not to mention their Cuirs will run through LI like butter now. Overall big boost (combined the weakening of the other OP civs).

Germans
Wow, Germans are going to be significantly stronger. The nerf to light infantry combined with the removal of the Uhlan villager penalty will make Uhlans an actual civ bonus (and they are just as fast as hussars now). Then consider those 3 starting settler wagons will be able to unpack those crates faster than 6 villagers can is small bonus. It will shave a few seconds off the age up time (and any time resources are shipped in).

Also consider that the x-bows will now do much better versus HI, which was one of the weaknesses of Germany (a hard HI rush). Combined with other civ nerfs, I see them as becoming very competitive.

India
Over all boost. More starting villagers will mean it is easier to continuously produce villagers since you can have more on wood. The 100 less food stings a little, but that extra villager will help.

The flail elephant is definitely boosted. They do more damage to buildings (80 damage but attack twice as fast so actually 160 damage in the same 3 seconds as before (of 140)) and will stay alive longer to pump out the damage due to the HP boost (much better versus melle). Sure they are weak versus infantry but they always were, nothing changed here. They are meant to be a clean up crew or attack from the rear. They will do this better than ever now. Not to mention much cheaper. It’s not a spectacular unit, but not to bad either.

The Howdah is just as good versus its counters as ever but a little more specialized and not such a 1 unit for everything job.

The main bonus here is the change to Royal Green Jackets. It will now be used in all India’s decks. It was a worthless card before but makes the Gurka into a sweet unit and their main weakness is now fixed. India already gets colonial skirms, which is a huge benefit, but now in Fortress, they have the potential to be HI killers as well. Late game, they will outrange skirmishers.


Iroquois
These changes to the firepit are ok. As a matter of fact, I would like to just get rid of the magic and make the firepit into a church type building (techs / units only) but boost other units in some regards to make up for it. This is fine by itself.

A small boost to Tomahawks but considering the WC aura and fire pit nerfs, they are receiving an overall nerf.

Aenna were boosted, but still a worthless unit. Units that cannot hit in run in colonial are inferior. A crossbow is so much better than this crappy unit. Give them hit and run and change the ROF. That’s the only way to fix this unit.

Kanya got boosted but big deal. For a unit that costs almost the same as a hussar, they sure do not perform nearly as well (less HP, less damage, but only 13 VS cheaper). Considering they cost wood and will require 3 resources to make a decent combo, it is going to be tough to spam these and infantry and keep up with market upgrades. By the way, a 5% reduction of the WC aura is actually 14 HP and they still have less than 3 damage of a hussar. Therefore, were they really boosted?

Some great cards nerfed (like 11 tommas) but maybe this was needed, I don’t know. The extra hand damage on tommas doesn’t seem that important to me. What gets me is the “Team Scount Infantry” nerf. It is now a much weaker version of the Team Spanish Inquisition. At least that card can be sent in Age 1 (for +10 LOS) and affects all units, not just infantry. This card sent in age 2, affects only infantry, and only +8.

Overall I feel that the Iroquois just got own without the use of Vaseline. Does BHG even remember that Iroquois was already nerfed in the last patch? Was this really necessary? They These changes combined with the LI indirect nerfs, is going to drastically change the way Iro is played, if at all.

Japan
Undeniably weaker late game muskets but their Colonial should be stronger due to the increased effects of Shrines. Muskets will still be a strong unit, especially with the light infantry nerfs and Nags being the LI killers they are. Still a good combo but no one can cry about it anymore. The HP bonus on the Golden Pavilion may be used more (more diverse combo of units combined with higher HP to multiply off of).

Japan is going to be much tougher. So you think a few OP Ag muskets were tough, well now they will be able to spam them!

Ottoman
These are some interesting changes. 300 wood start means that the Ottomans can build a 100W church and a house, which will grant XP exactly the same as constant villager production. Here is what I mean mathematically:

Ottomans do not get XP for their free villagers. Instead, this church will grant 0.4 XP per second. 1 villager = 10 XP when spawned which has a train time of 25 seconds (for most civilizations). So 10XP every 25 seconds = 0.4 XP / sec.

For non-TP maps, they will still have 100 wood towards a barracks and still able to age up in the same time frame. The XP mosque trickle will make up for the lack of XP from producing villagers but grants no other bonuses in Colonial (church really is not needed for anything else until Industrial). I do not see spies worth making unless versus one of the Native civs.

On a TP map, they will not be able to build a TP immediately since they will then not have enough wood for a house and TP (without chopping or finding a 50 wood treasure slowing the age up time). Choices will need to be made on that first shipment (ATP, 3 villagers, versus 300 wood). The Abbassid Market is not even a bonus, 600 wood is actually more in VS than previously (800 food) and the other upgrades to speed may be cheaper, but less beneficial (-5 versus -8 but the end result after all 3 techs is the same). Wood upgrade cards may find their way into the Ottoman’s deck as they seem to be more wood dependent (less raidable I guess).

The Silk Road nerf may not have been necessary since they do not have easy access to wood for the TP anymore. Setting up a route will be harder than ever since that first TP is no longer free (unless 100 wood spawns on a map of course).

I see them as an overall slight nerf but still balanced. They will be much better on non-TP maps, but their speed in a rush will be slowed or weakened. Perhaps they were to strong on TP maps anyway and it was necessary. Their RG hussars will be much more useful due to the nerfs to light infantry and they still have very strong individual units.

Portuguese
For most people, the boosts to Cassadors is a boost. For guys with extreme macro, the cassador is nerfed. They have less damage output even though they fire faster. However, for most guys, they will be much easier to play with roughly the same ranged hit points and much more hand HP (how many people can really control 3 – 4 groups of cassadors at once anyway). Un-upgraded cassadors will now out perform skirmishers (faster, more ranged HP, about the same damage).

However, the over LI nerf will still make them die horribly to cavalry. Combined with the fact they have no infantry upgrades until Industrial makes their infantry better but still weak. Dragoons / cassador combo with a few culverins will be a force hard to stop.

In addition, their hand cavalry was boosted. Since all other cavalry was also boosted, their Dragoons will be much more useful on the battlefield (more to kill). Some good boosts here, I think the Ports will be more competitive combined with the HI boost to crossbows. I’m really scared of their FF now. It seems FF was nerfed for all the civs except this one, which was actually boosted.

Russia
Sevastapol will still be useful, but not completely lame (sneak forts in your back yard for example – like no one can see that). Cossacks will be much stronger and their infantry will be produced much faster (especially after upgrades). Overall boost.

Spain
At first I thought they got hit hard, but remember, those lancers are going to be even more deadly with the LI nerfs and since LI will not own the scene, Rods will play a bigger role as well. All their merc shipments, falconets, unction for late game, etc. is still there. The shipment rate is still crazy fast, just the laming of FF is stopped. This is good.

Sioux

I see a trend here to get rid of all FF strategies. Funny thing is, I think with the nerfs to LI already, this cost increase of Wakinas was probably not necessary.

As far as Axe Riders go, I think the problem was very fast cavalry that could catch the light cavalry and force into melee but they have just been slowed (-5% WC aura). Probably not necessary but you shouldn’t be attacking light cavalry with melee cavalry anyway so who cares.

The -100 wood is going to kill this civilization. Just rush them with an all out rush before they can even get their war hut up. They will be forced to chop wood on age up so will not even have enough food for units even if they get it up. I think they will go towards the bottom of the balance. To many small changes. What happened to the idea of many small patches?



I will not be able to update my spreadsheets until after the patch. I need to test to much. Many of the changes are vague and will require in-game testing.

BTW Cyclo, this patch was not made or affected in any way by BHG.

The patch was more or less put together by Wacko, Milo and a group of 8 expert players including NP, Luigi, and Parfait.

Nice.

When does the patch take effect? Anyone know?

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]
Aztecs

Eagle Runner Knights were hit hard. From 15 to 12 damage (and from 17 last patch). Especially when combined with fire pit and no ruthlessness. Say good by to this unit except versus extreme cavalry usage. Not to mention, it seems LI will get a x2 multiplier (when only x1.5 versus dragoon type units – see comments above as to why).

The boosts to maces should have came with a reduction in their colonial cards. They are going to be very strong in Colonial, but still weak as hell late game (when the cavalry comes out).

[/quote]

The Eagle range was reduced from 14 to 12 - it's not attack that was reduced. The reduction in the WC's aura from x3 to x2 does cut early shipments so that offsets the early game. In fact, the slower age up politicians are much more attractive in the patch.

Macabee

Yea, ERK will still be good at what they are meant to do -- kill cav, but they won't be worth massing any longer, which is great IMO.

Coyotes will be much stronger though.

nice review Cyclo!

I think aennas will be ok now. There are other units who can't hit and run, it's a matter of adapting your play-style a bit. They have 5.0 speed, make use of it! 110 HP (+ chief aura) is nice for a bow-unit as well, so they can actually stand still and fight longer.
Iro can also just spam shipments in age II like no other can.
I think they have up to 7 military shipments in age II, and they can usually grab a TP in age one. Combine this with a fast age up and a free warhut, you have a serious Colonial strength.
The FF hasn't changed much. Although the FP spam got nerfed hard (which is good) they have alternatives. And don't forget they can do as good as France when it comes to natives!! (plus they have those scouts that are un-countarable now)

I will def give Iro a try, I've loved em since day 1, but they always were too OP or one-dimensional in the past, I think those days are over now

Nice overview cyclo. Have you posted this over at AS?? Wonder what the experts responses would be......

Yes, very nice review.

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]BTW Cyclo, this patch was not made or affected in any way by BHG.

The patch was more or less put together by Wacko, Milo and a group of 8 expert players including NP, Luigi, and Parfait.[/quote]

Good point, but I imagine they are still in the approval loop. The final say so has to go through someone.

[quote=""Macabee""]
The Eagle range was reduced from 14 to 12 - it's not attack that was reduced. The reduction in the WC's aura from x3 to x2 does cut early shipments so that offsets the early game. In fact, the slower age up politicians are much more attractive in the patch. [/quote]

Yea I misread that. Even more painful nerf than damage. Their early fortress strength (before massing) depended on being able to hit and run. Hard to do that if you cannot out range them. The mercenary shipment is still hard to obtain until late game.

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Yea, ERK will still be good at what they are meant to do -- kill cav, but they won't be worth massing any longer, which is great IMO.

Coyotes will be much stronger though.[/quote]

Do you think? I think pumas will be used more. Obviously not jaguar knights (to slow and less damage to cavalry now so countered by LI hard). At least pumas can get a 5 speed with shipment and built out of same building as maces / coyotes.

Based on these patch notes, all skirmisher type units will get a x2 bonus to eagle knights and a x1.5 bonus to dragoon type units (x2 x 0.75 = 1.5). This does not seem fair. Maybe they have a special line item versus eagles that was not represented in the patch notes. As it is now, skirmishers counter eagle knights, maces (out range & out damage), jaguar knights, and skull knights. So what can the Aztec do versus a light infantry spam in the next patch, coyotes or Arrow Knights?

Arrow knights do not do anywhere close to enough damage to hurt skirmishers and coyotes do not have enough ranged resists. Perhaps they will do better in next patch versus light infantry, but the skirms can still hit and run enough to hurt the coyotes (slower than cavalry even with shipment) and if not, just make a hand full of cheap pikes to keep in reserves.

An army of skirmishers and a handful of pikes will destroy Aztecs. Add in some cannon if you want to force them to make arrows or coyotes…

It is a good thing they will have such a strong Colonial, because I do not see them getting out of it (or even needing to).


[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]nice review Cyclo!

I think aennas will be ok now. There are other units who can't hit and run, it's a matter of adapting your play-style a bit. They have 5.0 speed, make use of it! 110 HP (+ chief aura) is nice for a bow-unit as well, so they can actually stand still and fight longer.
Iro can also just spam shipments in age II like no other can.
I think they have up to 7 military shipments in age II, and they can usually grab a TP in age one. Combine this with a fast age up and a free warhut, you have a serious Colonial strength.
The FF hasn't changed much. Although the FP spam got nerfed hard (which is good) they have alternatives. And don't forget they can do as good as France when it comes to natives!! (plus they have those scouts that are un-countarable now)

I will def give Iro a try, I've loved em since day 1, but they always were too OP or one-dimensional in the past, I think those days are over now [/quote]

Good points, I just can never seem to get arrow units without hit and run to work. That includes longbows in colonial (before you can mass them). It seems the less micro you use, the better they perform…

[quote=""StrokeyBlofeld""]Nice overview cyclo. Have you posted this over at AS?? Wonder what the experts responses would be......[/quote]

Nah, I only have time for posting on one forum right now, much less arguing with a bunch of experts.

Being one of AOE's top stats guys, I would have thought posting this up at AS would be a good thing, as many people in the community not only value your efforts, but your opinions too.