Ideas to fix Iroquois Lategame problems

[murdilator]

Hey guys, I've thought a little about the Iros and a couple upgrades that could be tweaked to fix their problem of Kanyas, and various other issues with fighting heavy cavalry. Other than this they are quite decent, but when spams come around they go down easily.


My first idea is about Kanya Horseman cost in Imperial: either we could make Legendary Kanya change wood cost to coin cost, so that you would have 100 food, 75 coin instead of 100 food, 75 wood, OR, we could make the 9 Kanya Horseman + 2 medicine men (Tuscarora Support) change the cost from wood to coin.

What do you guys think? With this change, preferably changing cost with Legendary upgrade, Kanyas would be formidable cavalry. If you like, you can download my 3v3WildernessRoad, which has this change added, to try it for yourself. Its just a bit rough changing from a wood economy to a coin economy. Or maybe changing it in Industrial with Champion Kanya would help.


My second thought comes on Iroquois Lacrosse. It really is way too expensive for just +2.00 Range and LOS. However, I have an idea. Let Lacrosse still give +2.00 range and LOS to Forest Prowlers and Aenna, but +4.0 range and LOS to Tomahawks and Mantlets, and lastly, possibly give Forest Prowlers and Aenna +0.25x ranged bonus to cavalry to negate some penalty (not melee), and especially give Tomahawks +0.5x ranged bonus to cavalry, and Mantlets +0.25x ranged bonus to cavalry. This allows Iroquois infantry more versatility, fixes Mantlet's ranged problems, and makes Tomahawks and Mantlets decent anti-cavalry units. This team would be awesome. However, note that it still costs 600 wood, 600 coin, and it would cost a lot to get in fortress. However, we could skip out on the Prowler and Aenna part if they would become way too OP. Or, we could move this upgrade to Industrial to fix these problems.


I also thought of Rams: They are very powerful, but a bit weak to ranged units, and somewhat heavy on wood. Would it be O.K. if we increased RR to 0.75% and perhaps lower wood cost? In my Wilderness Road I made them 65 food, 95 wood, with 5.5 speed, but no RR increase. Would this be OP?


Feel free to make questions or comments. I would like the Kanya and the Lacrosse - at least for Tomahawks and Mantlets, to be done. I cannot do this Lacrosse test in the scenario editor without boosting other units.



regards,


murdilator

[LaZy]

I wonder what SCP will think about these changes.

out

[36drew]

Who is scp?

[DutchNvG]

A "Stealing Computers from Players" person?

[Comadevil]

Sporting Clube de Portugal, a sports club in Lisbon, Portugal, often known outside Portugal as "Sporting Lisbon"

[Sporting_Lisbon]

Danke Marco

My first idea is about Kanya Horseman cost in Imperial: either we could make Legendary Kanya change wood cost to coin cost, so that you would have 100 food, 75 coin instead of 100 food, 75 wood, OR, we could make the 9 Kanya Horseman + 2 medicine men (Tuscarora Support) change the cost from wood to coin.

The problem with the iroquois lategame is structural: like every other native they lack a 30% tech on their plantations. Changing kanya cost from wood to coin would exacerbate this issue, wood in lategame is cheaper than coin.

My second thought comes on Iroquois Lacrosse. It really is way too expensive for just +2.00 Range and LOS. However, I have an idea. Let Lacrosse still give +2.00 range and LOS to Forest Prowlers and Aenna, but +4.0 range and LOS to Tomahawks and Mantlets, and lastly, possibly give Forest Prowlers and Aenna +0.25x ranged bonus to cavalry to negate some penalty (not melee), and especially give Tomahawks +0.5x ranged bonus to cavalry, and Mantlets +0.25x ranged bonus to cavalry. This allows Iroquois infantry more versatility, fixes Mantlet's ranged problems, and makes Tomahawks and Mantlets decent anti-cavalry units. This team would be awesome. However, note that it still costs 600 wood, 600 coin, and it would cost a lot to get in fortress. However, we could skip out on the Prowler and Aenna part if they would become way too OP. Or, we could move this upgrade to Industrial to fix these problems.

This is a good suggestion, if needed there could be make some little tweaks (fully upgraded Mantlet 1 pop abuse, anyone?) but it would do justice to tomas.



Rams have a bug where cover mode reduces their speed but not their attack, so that's where you get your rr boost. However their price is what makes people think twice before getting those. A small price boost would be nice so that iro could have a petard-like unit. Not sure about 5.5 speed though, their wood stick is supposed to be heavy (nevermind the "that's what she said" jokes)

[murdilator]

Thanks for the comments Lisbon. But Iroquois do get 119 vils lategame - supposing you have a couple walls against raids. Idk. Maybe we could try it out in Wilderness Road sometime. I actually found that yes, gold will run out, but, if you use Aenna with FPs with cannon support, plus some others, you have quite a powerful combo, and gold is more balanced in collecting. Especially since they boosted Aenna .

Maybe the card idea of switching wood to coin cost would be better - because then it is optional. Or, another solution is to turn the 500 food, 500 coin, and 500 wood infinite shipment into another 1300 wood shipment. Could fix lategame, or make it OP. However, let us just stick with the Lacrosse so far - that could help a lot.



regards,


murdilator

[I__CHAOS__I]

better eco upgrades would be sufficient for Iro afaik, but they are also not designed to be ruling in the last age

[Sporting_Lisbon]

Iros lack 10% from eco theory, 25% on plants from royal mint, 20% on mills from refrigeration and 30% on plants because they lack the last upgrade :\ Also since they have firepit instead of factories, they can't even use all their vills. It's quite tough.

[wicked_assassin]

What sporting says, their is nothing wrong with the iro military.

[murdilator]

I actually tested the Lacrosse thing on TAD 1.0 with the changes I suggested, and, as it turns out, 15 Lacrosse Mantlets with 30 Lacrosse Tomas and 1 Warchief broke even with 30 non-FP Cuirs. I made the Tomas go into melee after the Mantlets were almost dead. And with Siege Discipline I could have added 15 Musket Riders. I also tried 20 FPs + 15 Aenna + 15 Mantlets + 1 Warchief against 30 hussars. The Hussars won with 1-8 Hussars remaining.


So Naturally, 30 Tomahawks + 15 Mantlets is 30+30 pop = 60, and with Siege discipline it is 45. So actually I could add 15 Musket Riders (30 pop) with 5 cannons (15 pop with siege discipline). This equals 90 pop of Cuirs. Not bad, eh? I actually would disagree about Iros not being good lategame. ES said that "the Iroquois have a slow-moving and powerful assault." This, my friends, could mean that Iroquois need something like Fire dance as well as population dance . Or it could mean to make more range for the Iroquois units to give them a nice edge.


regards,


murdilator

[deadhanddan]

[quote=""murdilator""]I actually tested the Lacrosse thing on TAD 1.0 with the changes I suggested, and, as it turns out, 15 Lacrosse Mantlets with 30 Lacrosse Tomas and 1 Warchief broke even with 30 non-FP Cuirs. I made the Tomas go into melee after the Mantlets were almost dead. And with Siege Discipline I could have added 15 Musket Riders. I also tried 20 FPs + 15 Aenna + 15 Mantlets + 1 Warchief against 30 hussars. The Hussars won with 1-8 Hussars remaining.


So Naturally, 30 Tomahawks + 15 Mantlets is 30+30 pop = 60, and with Siege discipline it is 45. So actually I could add 15 Musket Riders (30 pop) with 5 cannons (15 pop with siege discipline). This equals 90 pop of Cuirs. Not bad, eh? I actually would disagree about Iros not being good lategame. ES said that "the Iroquois have a slow-moving and powerful assault." This, my friends, could mean that Iroquois need something like Fire dance as well as population dance . Or it could mean to make more range for the Iroquois units to give them a nice edge.


regards,


murdilator[/quote]




thats the problem with iroqious imo , slow and powerful but with a bad economy where in most cases one cannot afford to be slow.

its more or less rush hard or lose vs superior eco