Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

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Cyclohexane
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by Cyclohexane »

Enter this site and go rent this documentary. It is highly disturbing and extremely interesting. I actually bought the DVD because I support the cause faithfully. I think you can watch it online for free but I could not find the link.

Who Killed the Electric Car

If you have any doubts about electric cars being competitive from a performance standpoint, check out the Telsa sports car powered from lithium ions.

Telsa Motors

This one is obviously put of my price range, but electric vehicles from nickel cadmium batteries can be manufactured for the same price as current vehicles. “Unfortunately”, the dealership will not make as much money in the long term with repairs since they have so many less moving parts to break…

An electric car combined with a home solar system (in most states), and you can drive for free. Don't believe it’s possible? That's what they want you to think. Here is a link to an old track home built in the 60's converted to be completely independent of the grid. In 7 years it not only pays for itself, it becomes profitable. They were also fortunate enough to purchase a 100% electric car before the car dealerships decided it is not something the public would “want” to buy! This is from a trusted source, NOVA. It talks about all the upgrades, tax credits, etc.

Solar Home

It's a lot of work, but once I get into a home (currently in a condo) and get settled in, I plan to start this project. The whole topic just pisses me off. Not the oil industry, but the people that just sit there and let it happen. An educated public is the worst thing imaginable for the oil, auto, gas, etc. industry. They want us to think it’s not possible or affordable. They want us to think fuel cells are a legitimate solution when they are years away (or more) from making it happen. Or how about the morons that think adding ethanol to fuel simultaneously raising the prices of food is a good idea? Battery technology has jumped leaps and bounds, we are in the future now. It is not only an affordable solution, it is 100% feasible and better on the environment. Even if you are one of those that think global warming is a scam, you cannot argue about pollution.

Some solutions just seem so simple to me but we are just to ignorant to see through the crap. The home I am looking at buying is fairly close to work (about 7.5 miles) so my gas bill will not be to bad. I plan to buy a foreign automobile that gets 45+ mpg because none of the American automakers have the vision to think past the next quarter.

Did I mention this pisses me off? I already went on a rant…
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BashUgood
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by BashUgood »

@Cyclo..

I saw that movie on Who killed the Electric Car...
It really annoyed me what those dang oil company CEO's do along with the Car makers that they payoff to continue making these dang gas dependant cars.

Another good documentary was The Inconvenient Truth by Al Gore..
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MizzKid92
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

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[quote=""LaZy""]I find it funny the way our american freinds complain about their "gas" (actually petrol - which is a liquid) prices and continue to make those noisy V8´s. We europeans are faithfull to our inline 4 cylinders running on diesel, yet seem to pay an absolute fortune on petrol and/or diesel prices. What it all comes down 2 is: TAX.

Out[/quote]

Actually, us Americans dont seem to be buying American cars anymore. I drive a Honda, my parents both drive Hondas, and my sister drives a Toyota. All of which are 4-cylinders except for my sister's who has a V6.

So even if Ford and GM are making those "American style" V8s, no one is buying them anymore.

See this article from the end of 2007.

I quote:
December is Ford Motor Co.'s last chance to hold on to its longtime position as the No. 2 automaker by U.S. sales. Toyota Motor Corp., which outsold Ford by 15,000 vehicles in November, is on track to overtake Ford this year.
Nesvold predicts Ford's sales could fall as much as 12 percent in December
General Motors Corp. could see an even sharper decline of 14 percent
Barry said Chrysler LLC will likely see double-digit drops in December
Compared to Japanese sales:
Toprak predicts Toyota's sales will be down 3 percent compared with last December, while Honda Motor Co.'s will fall 1 percent. Nissan Motor Co. will likely be flat, he said.
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RascalJones
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by RascalJones »

FYI, it just hit $3.95/gallon here today. Probably higher at some locations.

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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by djdan »

Yeah cheapest round near me is about £1.10/litre
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by Palehorse »

Low Sulphur road diesel was $4.299 over the weekend. High Sulphur offroad diesel was $3.959.
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IndyBrit
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by IndyBrit »

Hmmmm.

I'm deeply enmeshed in all of these technologies with automobile and oil companies - to the point where I can't talk about certain specifics. However - I'm telling you that there is no conspiracy against these technologies, that electric cars are not in our near future because of the merits (or lack) of the technology, that in most of the U.S. and Europe the solar home is neither cheap nor feasible (but there are a few passive solar technologies that make sense and should be utilized), and that when alternate fuels are utilized it will be the oil companies leading the way. Further, it is decidedly in the interests of the bigs to have an educated work force and populace, and they wish for that every day.

I'm not against this stuff - I drive a Prius for crying out loud. It's just that when you get into specifics on these various technologies, it's clear that there are many challenges that need to be addressed, and there are unintended consequences that kill many alternate technologies.

If you want to, let's select one and talk about it in specifics - I'll tell you what I can.

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IndyBrit
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by IndyBrit »

Just for example - using only the information on the provided links combined with google-able public info and no "secret info" - I'm calling bull on both the solar home and the tesla car as being competitive technologies.

I'll give a detailed summary later if there is ANY interest in this at all. Kind of busy working right now. :D

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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""IndyBrit""]Hmmmm.

I'm deeply enmeshed in all of these technologies with automobile and oil companies - to the point where I can't talk about certain specifics. However - I'm telling you that there is no conspiracy against these technologies, that electric cars are not in our near future because of the merits (or lack) of the technology, that in most of the U.S. and Europe the solar home is neither cheap nor feasible (but there are a few passive solar technologies that make sense and should be utilized), and that when alternate fuels are utilized it will be the oil companies leading the way. Further, it is decidedly in the interests of the bigs to have an educated work force and populace, and they wish for that every day.

I'm not against this stuff - I drive a Prius for crying out loud. It's just that when you get into specifics on these various technologies, it's clear that there are many challenges that need to be addressed, and there are unintended consequences that kill many alternate technologies.

If you want to, let's select one and talk about it in specifics - I'll tell you what I can.[/quote]

How about advances in fuel-cell technology.. That was pretty big in my undergrad days around 1998-99.. Why has it stalled?
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IndyBrit
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by IndyBrit »

[quote=""Soccerman771""]
How about advances in fuel-cell technology.. That was pretty big in my undergrad days around 1998-99.. Why has it stalled?[/quote]

Mainly three issues:
1) base system cost (require catalysts, controls, high-dollar exotic materials)
2) power throughput. although efficiency is high, it's difficult to build a system that converts the fuel to energy fast enough for mobile applications (although laptops etc. may be coming)
3) fuel selection. Hydrogen is great, but it must be generated and bulk transportation is basically prohibitive. Plus, from the perspective of a mobile vehicle the energy density is very low. Otherwise, you're using a hydrocarbon (or alcohol) which introduces complications (dealing with elemental carbon generation, for example) plus it still releases CO2. Life cycle efficiency (ie total fuel economy) with the fuel cell on a hydrocarbon is similar to an internal combustion engine on hydrocarbons, for a large increase in cost and complexity.

Therefore, I don't know that fuel cells will ever become a prime mover technology, although I would expect they may become common in smaller applications where a small amount of methanol or hydrogen could be utilized as the fuel and greater energy density than a battery is worth the money.

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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by Soccerman771 »

What about for airplanes, would that be useful technology for that application? They still run on gas from what I remember.
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IndyBrit
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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by IndyBrit »

[quote=""Soccerman771""]What about for airplanes, would that be useful technology for that application? They still run on gas from what I remember.[/quote]

It would be very bad for airplanes due to the power density problem. Granted, expense is much less of an issue in an airplane, but you must be able to convert fuel into kinetic energy much more quickly in an airplane than for a car. That's why we use turbines in most airplanes today; the power to weight ratios in a turbine are massive.

A train or a ship might be good applications for a fuel cell, because powerplant weight is irrelevant, power requirements are low considering the cargo sizes, expense is not much of an issue, etc. The numbers are rather low, though, and diesels do very well in those applications so I suppose there just hasn't been the economic incentive to try yet.

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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by shootbogey »

I think gas prices will need to get closer to $5 in order to make a dramatic shift towards alternative engergy sources. As far as i can tell, $4 is causing a shift but not a radical one. I can't really support the conspiracy theory although it is a popular one. I think Exxon and contemporaries are driven by the dollar. When energy is more profitable to extract from sea water or sunlight or geothermal energy or flux capacitors :-) then we will see them begin to invest in those areas.

The thing I find most perplexing is the ethanol craze. As a farm kid, I'm in utter amazement at the price of commodities. While oil lubricates the economy so to speak, the food fills bellies. When the price of corn goes from $2.50 last year to $6.00 per bushel now, things are going to get crazy. I know that a number of beef producers are slaughtering their herds and planting corn in their pastures. This has produced a fairly steady price in beef because there is steady supply. Within about 8 months, we will see a dip in cows going to slaughter which will dramatically increase the price of beef at the grocery store.

Dozens of new ethanol plants are also coming online in 2009 and 2010 A weak dollar makes US corn and wheat very attractive to asian buyers which increases the price even further.

We are feeling 'pinched' at the gas pump. We are going to feel sucker punched at the grocery store by this time next year.

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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by luukje »

Damn just lost my post. Now I have to write it again.

Ethanol and biodiesel are crazy yes. But its the way for the big oil companies to keep up with their current profits. They will do anything to keep us from consuming less fuel. Think about it, people using a hummer SUV to take their kids to school (what is it about women and big SUV, why do they like it that much?).

And dont put you money on hybrid cars, a recent german survey got the best conventional models being 25% cleaner then hybrids.

We will need to cut down on travelling distances, have smaller and cleaner cars, use public transport....Makes me happy we bought one of the cleanest cars available.

And what about those 2-3 billion asians waiting to start consuming like we do? They want a car first, and to travel and a neat home, and.... once they got that, maybe then they will think about going for a better world.

And dont foucs to much on cars. How much do airplanes pollute? And freighters and fish trawlers. only yesterday, some fisherman on the news was complaing that his medium sized trawler was using up to 6.000 liter diesel per 24h.

phew. how will they think about us in a 1.000 years?

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Re: Can Gas Cost get any Higher ?

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""luukje""]And what about those 2-3 billion asians waiting to start consuming like we do? They want a car first, and to travel and a neat home, and.... once they got that, maybe then they will think about going for a better world.[/quote]

I was happy to see that electric scooters are very commonly used in china now. Not only much better for the enviroment, but they also don't make such terrible noice (which is what I hate about most bikers)

[quote=""luukje""]phew. how will they think about us in a 1.000 years?[/quote]

Those cave people will have other issues to worry about, like hunting dinosaurs ;)
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