The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by lordandcount »

Another subject, know it has nothing to do with aztec, but what do you think india will be able to do against cannon? Their most heavy counter (the howdah) got nerved, so what can they do now?
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

Sowars with great speed will still be okay against cannons that aren't incredibly well defended. Besides that, a couple Howdahs will probably still be decent. They didn't get nerfed that badly. You always have Siege Elephants, but those are rarely worth it, so I dunno.

You also can get falcs of your own from the Consulate, and you can counter enemy falcs decently with them if you micro them properly.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

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[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Mac, there are 6 civs in the game who don't have a real anti-infantry cannon unit (you really can't count light cannons nor flaming arrows, both are more useful as anti-cannons than anything else), and they are just fine. They don't need their ranged anti-cav cavalry units to be extra strong against ranged infantry.

Aztec:

Mace --> HI
Coyote ---> Ranged Infantry
Puma ---> Buildings / Cav
JPK ----> HI / Cav / Buildings
Arrow Knights ---> Buildings / Artillery
ERK ---> Cavalry
Skull Knights ---> Buildings / Cavalry


The weaknesses for Aztec with the counter system were a result of maces not being able to effectively counter HI after the colonial age, and coyotes not being able to counter ranged infantry effectively after the colonial age.

Both of those units have been boosted in the next patch for those very reasons. ERKs DON'T need to be stronger.[/quote]

OK, I see the problem. Indeed, that units counter another unit and by how much is a part of the counter system. That's a focus on trees but there's a whole forest! It is not the essence of the counter system. According to ES, the counter balance system is a rock, paper, scissors system(s) (cav > cannon > infantry > cav w/hi). It's not just 1 unit vs another. In the case of this game, a civ is not broken if viable combinations of 2 units can be combined to complete the cycle. It's true for almost every civ. These combinations are easier in colonial when there are fewer unit types in play. In fortress it gets a little more complicated. A successful combination could be musket/jan combined with hussars. This combination can compete with cav, li, hi, and cannons. Not that anyone would only use 2 units, this combination in complete with 2 units. Another successful combination could be hals with cannons. This combination is completed reasonably well because it counters all infantry and cav. I'm not saying one wouldn't make other units but these combinations form a core unit combination and note that in these combinations, there are units that perform dual roles to complete the rock, paper, scissors formula.

Now take Aztecs' Arrow Knights. What are they vulnerable to? Cav come to mind as well as infantry (mainly melee). So, what units should the Aztecs combine with Arrow Knights? Puma? Mace? These are BROKEN combinations because the rock, paper, scissors formula is incomplete with only 2 units (like other civs enjoy). This is actually the origin or the word "broken" as it's applied to Aztecs.

I don't see how the new patch allows an unbroken combination using 2 units. It will take 3 (be broken). The problem with this, as sometimes occurs with other civs, is it's too easy to overwhelm the combination. This is like I've done vs china using coyotes. China is unable to produce enough pikes to stop coyotes once the rush is stopped.

Additionally, Mace don't seem to be capable of countering much of anything other than in colonial/part of fortress. An extra .5 is nothing compared to Dutch hals or skirms for example. They get 15% hp, 15% dmg, the combat card, arsenal upgrades, fast hals, and if I remember correctly - hals are fortress units and skirms (possibly a fortress unit) auto upgrade on age up. The mace gets one merc card woth 20 hp's and a weakened firepit and that's it. I don't think Mace --> HI except for a fairly short time in the game. take care.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Aztec's broken because they have 4 (jaguars, pumas, erks, skulls) very good cav counters but nothing else to counter the rest. Coyotes and maces look pathetic when compared with hussars and skirms.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Tatltael »

well, jags have the x3 multiplier vs. HI now, so they'll do well against what i thought they were originally supposed to beat. skull knights are pretty good against anything (if they can get close enough) especially w/ that age 4 card.

but uhh yeah its hard to beat a mass of LI w/ aztec atm but i dont think that will be a problem after the patch, also consider the age 2 card that allows coyotes to go stealth, i know age 2 card slots are precious and this card isnt that widely used, but with proper micro its devastating even now, having a mass of coyotes floating in on a group of skirms, backed up by mace of course. but uh, yeah. its still hard to counter mass LI atm, although you wont be seeing too much of that post-patch

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

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[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]Aztec's broken because they have 4 (jaguars, pumas, erks, skulls) very good cav counters but nothing else to counter the rest. Coyotes and maces look pathetic when compared with hussars and skirms.[/quote]

This was the essence of the problem I was getting at. They have lots of units which are good against cavalry and buildings, not enough to do with infantry.

I think we're really jumping the gun if we're already assuming that maces and coyotes won't be up to the task after the changes. I think it's easy to see that at the least they will be a lot better.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""luukje""]

Didnt you forget ERK have rate of fire 1.5 and skirmisher 3.0, cyclo? Cause that makes a lot of difference to. With no set up, ERK are the one unit that can actually take advanatge of archer 1.5 firerate. A lot of archer units look good on paper but in real games, they just dont perform. Not ERK. [/quote]

It’s up there right after I list all the disadvantages Eagles have versus skirmishers. The ROF while hit and running does not make much of a difference against skirmishers with longer range. Early Fortress, the skirmisher can hit and run eagles all day (20 range compared to 14). Now if you’re talking late game when micro does not mean so much and the Aztec invested 1000 gold and a shipment, have champion Eagles and played combat cards (multiplied by fire pit), then you are going to have to spend equal resources or more to counter this unit. I never said they cannot beat skirmishers, I said it take 3 to 5 shipments, tons of macro (fire pit swapping from booming, war priests, war dance, fertility to spam, etc.), and a lot of gold (map control). I also never said they do not need a nerf, I said they do not need five of them in the same patch.

It takes so much to get the spam going. No offense here but if they beat you as Dutch, they deserved to win. I agree that the Aztec rush is fairly easy to perform, but recovering from a rush and going into an Eagle spam is almost impossible unless the rush caused some major damage. In either case, if an Aztec beat a Dutch and it was not due to some surprise canoe rush only playable on a few maps, the better player won.



[quote=""KingKaramazov""] Mac, there are 6 civs in the game who don't have a real anti-infantry cannon unit (you really can't count light cannons nor flaming arrows, both are more useful as anti-cannons than anything else), and they are just fine. They don't need their ranged anti-cav cavalry units to be extra strong against ranged infantry.

Aztec:

Mace --> HI
Coyote ---> Ranged Infantry
Puma ---> Buildings / Cav
JPK ----> HI / Cav / Buildings
Arrow Knights ---> Buildings / Artillery
ERK ---> Cavalry
Skull Knights ---> Buildings / Cavalry


The weaknesses for Aztec with the counter system were a result of maces not being able to effectively counter HI after the colonial age, and coyotes not being able to counter ranged infantry effectively after the colonial age.

Both of those units have been boosted in the next patch for those very reasons. ERKs DON'T need to be stronger. [/quote]

You are forgetting that the only unit they have with area damage is Skulls which are not easily assessable until Industrial. Cannons are available in Fortress. And flaming arrows with Jap muskets is a very strong combination I have used many times. Perhaps in the next patch, it will be used more than pure muskets! I do agree with your assessment of Iros though, they to had a powerful unit to hid behind to make up for their lack of decent cavalry / cannons (prowler).

Maces will still not be able to counter HI in Fortress. Even India got an equivalent to CIR. OK, but maces are dirt cheap right. Very true, but unlike China, they do not have an increased population. As a matter of fact, their economy requires 10 extra villagers (priests) so they have even less space for inefficient cheap units!

If you think Jag Knights are going to be able to effectively kill ranged HI, think again. Stealth is useless because the base unit is so slow. If Jag Knights got a boost to speed, or at least a shipment that allowed their speed to increase, I may have a different opinion. Jags are to slow to kill ranged HI (especially Jap muskets). They are only good for putting down a pike rush in your base.

Moreover, strong light infantry absolutely own Jags, but they will also kill maces due to higher range.

I’d like to clarify that I don’t think Aztecs are going to be weaker, just much weaker in Fortress. In Colonial, they will be one of the strongest civs in the game.


[quote=""Soccerman771""]What about carib blowgunners? They have a couple of nice upgrades for LB's. Are ERK's affected by these?[/quote]

Yes, check out the “Minor Native Technologies” in my Guide.


[quote=""KingKaramazov""]To Cyclo: I don't mean to offend you but your posts are always so damn long I can't really get myself to read the vast majority of them. Most of it is theory craft, though, and I put a lot more value on in-game experience than theory craft.[/quote]

So what you are saying is, you do not read my posts, but you reply to them? I think I see now why you are so stubborn when obvious facts are displayed in front of your eyes. So your logic is that I’m all theory and no in-game experience? I got news for you, it’s applying that theory that allows me to compete when playing a hundredth of the games most people have time for. I will give you that I would be much better if I at least played once a day, but you’re selling yourself short ignoring statistics.

As far as long posts, I’m going to have to reply to this comment of yours one more time. I do not have the time to log in and make posts many times a day. I get a break, I read all the new posts in a thread, and reply to them all at once (notice the low number of posts I have). I’m not sure why you would think I would care enough to be offended! I’m still going to sleep good tonight. Don’t like it, don’t read it, that way you will always be right.

[quote=""lordandcount""]Another subject, know it has nothing to do with aztec, but what do you think india will be able to do against cannon? Their most heavy counter (the howdah) got nerved, so what can they do now?[/quote]

Because of the additional multiplier, they actually do more damage to artillery than before (162 compared to pre-patch 157).
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

Stop using Dutch as your example for why Aztecs couldn't beat Fortress civs. The Dutch were OP, now they've been nerfed. Aztec vs Dutch was one of their worst matchups.

The Aztecs don't have much trouble with matchups like France, Germany, Russia etc (in Fortress at least, to my knowledge). Many civs have had trouble against Dutch.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

I agree with cyclo, except the part:
Maces will still not be able to counter HI in Fortress. Even India got an equivalent to CIR. OK, but maces are dirt cheap right. Very true, but unlike China, they do not have an increased population. As a matter of fact, their economy requires 10 extra villagers (priests) so they have even less space for inefficient cheap units!
I think maces will do fine tbh, but only time will tell that.
If a unit is pop-space inefficient, work around that problem. It's not a good idea to mass to 200 pop (while your opponent does the same with better units). Move in sooner and keep pressure on, while replacing the cheap maces at high speed. Fight before pop-space becomes a real game decider.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Macabee »

We've been having this discussion about massed eagles in 1 v 1 games and I've been thinking that's a tough thing for me to accept. I know that in team games there are massed eagles. But, I also know how hard it is for me to mass them in a 1 v 1 game. Even though I download and watch Expert Aztec games that have few eagles (if any) eagles, that I can't afford to mass them, stories still persist of the great unbeatable massed eagle hordes.

So, today I was at the eso stats site looking at some ... uh ... stats, and I saw this shocking statistic. Of all the Aztec 1 v 1 supremacy games, Aztec players produce an average of 12.52 eagles. There it is, our massed hordes of game wrecking eagles, 12.52 per game. lol

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Cyclohexane »

^
That is because most people just rush with them because it is a superior strategy.

In the next patch, it will be even more prevalent.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

A) Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't necessarily mean it isn't lame when it does. Exhibit A: Mass Gendarme Cuirassiers

B) Just because you personally haven't been able to effectively mass Eagles in 1v1 games, doesn't mean it can't be done.

You all keep talking about how "weak" Aztecs are past colonial due to their units and whatever, but why are Aztecs considered one of the strongest civilizations in Treaty and FFA games? Because of their amazing boom and strong late game.

Anyway, I think the horse died a long time ago with this discussion.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]

You all keep talking about how "weak" Aztecs are past colonial due to their units and whatever, but why are Aztecs considered one of the strongest civilizations in Treaty and FFA games? Because of their amazing boom and strong late game.

[/quote]

I think you've been listening to too many politicians. You've saying the same thing while ignoring the point an answering a different question. The point is, skirmishers do counter eagles as they are now in early to mid Fortress.

You do not balance this game based on treaty or FFA. Whether it is correct or not is another issue, but balance in this game is based on 1v1. In 1v1, eagles are very hard to mass against an equally skilled opponent. If the Aztec rushes, recovery to mass eagles is not easy and borderline impossible unless you are way above their skill level. If the Aztec booms (on water or land), they are open to being rushed and losing map control. Without 2 or 3 mines, you cannot mass eagles and send in the range upgrade to make them useful.

Have you played Aztecs and tried this easy approach to winning?

Again, I'm not saying eagles did not need a nerf, just not 5. I also do not like forcing the Aztecs into more of a 1 dimensional civilization. It's a hard point to make that they will be more diverse in the next patch.

Overall, they will be stronger, but that does not make them more fun to play.


[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]
I think maces will do fine tbh, but only time will tell that.
If a unit is pop-space inefficient, work around that problem. It's not a good idea to mass to 200 pop (while your opponent does the same with better units). Move in sooner and keep pressure on, while replacing the cheap maces at high speed. Fight before pop-space becomes a real game decider.[/quote]

Like in Colonial? I guess my point was that against an Aztec in the next patch, you can gaurantee Colonial combat / rush even more than previous. Colonial Militia will go a long way at keeping those maces off your villagers (1 shot kill) and as the game drags on, thier chances for winning greatly decrease.
Last edited by Cyclohexane on Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Sun_Tzu1 »

Anyway, I think the horse died a long time ago with this discussion.
Yep, it got countered by the Ealges :p.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

Yes, Cyclo, it makes sense to make a civ "more diverse" by boosting their ranged anti-cav unit to be strong against more than just cavalry, allowing them to make more of that unit than their other units.

Makes total sense.

Again, and again: Eagles are fine against cavalry, which is their job.

The other Aztec units have been boosted to be better against the units they are meant to counter, which will hopefully allow the Aztecs to do a bit more later on in the game than just make as many Eagles as possible, since that was their only really viable option before.

What else would you have wanted them to do?
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