The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

well I disagree KK, imho massed skirms > aztecs up until age 4 fully upgraded ERK's...something which was hardly possible to reach for aztec. if not, plz explain why aztec never won many games except with their rush?
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

Aztec often lost 1v1 games that went past colonial against some civs (like Dutch), but it had nothing to do with the strength / weakness of ERK.

In instances where Aztec players were allowed to mass ERKs, they were too strong. This usually happened in team games, but it could be allowed to happen in 1v1s. But I have always contended that just because a civ is weak in some areas it doesn't mean an OP aspect of that civ should be allowed to remain OP.

Plus, most games where the Aztecs had an even or advantaged match, it was (and probably still is) better for them to just rush, so they never got to the point where they needed to mass ERKs.


Anyway, this discussion could go on forever -- you clearly don't think that ERKs were / are too strong. I disagree. Every time I have had to deal with ERKs, I have found them to be way too strong / difficult to counter for a simple ranged cav unit which is meant to counter cavalry. This wasn't such a big issue before because ERKs were the only realistic option for Aztecs in Age 3. But it was still lame and annoying to deal with them. Now that the Aztecs have been boosted, they probably would have been too strong if ERKs hadn't been weakened further.

The fact is, ERKs are still going to be great at killing cavalry as long as they are supported. That's their job. So there's no need to worry or complain.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Sun_Tzu1 »

Just tried playing as some civs other than Aztec for once. I played a 1st Leutenant Indian with a decent HC. I played him as HC level 1 Iroquois! I thought, this isn't going to happen, especially when I forwarded my warhut against a ridge by mistake so my units had to take a massive detoir to get anywhere near his base! And, I won! lol. Love it.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Cyclohexane »

Aztecs require a very limited play style to win. You rush or you boat boom. I suppose they can still boat boom, but protecting those fishing ships will be much more challenging. Why only the Aztecs water dance was picked on is unknown to me considering offshore support was nerfed and the BB tech moved to Age 3.

In the next patch, I fear they will be even less versatile. Their colonial is definitely stronger and perhaps to strong with 9 and 8 mace shipment available and maces getting a huge boost. There will be no incentive to not rush as the Aztecs (cannot even boom as effectively). So if you play against Aztecs, just make sure to put Colonial Militia (or equivalent) in your deck and beat back their first few waves. Then take advantage of a weak Fortress military.

Yes eagles can still kill cavalry, but what will protect the eagles versus light infantry? Coyotes is their only solution.

Coyotes will be still be worthless unless you sink a ton of shipments into them. Perhaps I am wrong, light infantry will have a harder time killing them than previously where an equal number of x-bows could kill equal number of coyotes but if your opponent is smart and places the LI in between buildings, path finding issues still exist and their resists or HP was not boosted.

Coyotes are still inferior to every other civilizations cavalry (unless invest in them heavily meaning no military or econ shipments) and require you to collect three resource types (wood based) which makes your macro even harder considering you also have to balance dancing (more than any other civilization).

That’s not it, maces will still be worthless in Fortress and beyond since their range is 16 and they have nothing equivalent to CIR. Sure, they can make Jags to kill HI, but stealth Jags are so slow and muskets are ranged (can pick off jags before they get into melee).

Mark my words, Aztecs will have a harder time dealing with HI than before after Colonial. This is especially true in team games that will last longer than Colonial. I like to play civilizations that are versatile in 1v1 or team games since I enjoy both play styles.

They should allow a CIR boost for maces in the same manner India got a shipment for it. Because if Aztecs do not win in Colonial, just HI / LI spam them to death in Fortress. Their merc shipment should grant them a CIR type bonus but it doesn’t.

LI counters the majority of their units (even coyotes due to low HP, low resists, and cavalry path finding issues). A small group of ranged HI will counter the rest. You will not even need cavalry versus Aztecs except for raiding.

Eagles were the Aztec loop hole to the system. The high range and speed allow them to counter the slow moving low range HI and they excelled in killing cavalry and raiding after a shipment. Sorry KK, but skirmishers DO counter eagles very well and here is why:

• Higher range of 20 (even after Aztecs played a 1000 gold card for 18 range)
• Lower cost (183 to 237 villager secs)
• More damage (Eagle with 35 dancers & no shipments = 21 damage and auto vet-skirmisher = 27 to Eagles)
• Only need to collect 2 resources for synergistic units (i.e skirmisher and hussar)
• No fire pit balancing acts (fertility to spawn, war dance to fight, warrior priest to make the civ bonus work, etc.)
• Do not need 3 – 5 shipments to make it work (skirmishers can be upgraded to HI killing machines with 1 technology)
• Skirmisher has higher LOS (24 to 18). Engage or not engage.
• Slower base train time (37 versus 34 and no way to increase except by fire pit which requires a loss of resources from villagers dancing, or villagers dancing to get WP). Fertility was another reason that Eagles got the appearance of countering their counters (higher skilled players able to micro the fight and the fire pit) but this to was nerfed.

So eagles have about 50 more HP after resists, 2 more speed than a skirmisher, and a faster ROF. Does that mean skirmishers cannot counter eagles? Only late game after you send in 3 combat cards, 1 merc card, and possibly ruthlessness with a full fire pit is this even remotely true. How often do games get to that point in a 1v1? Even then, some civilizations can boost their skirmishers (i.e. Dutch) just as well (without the fire pit) but then they have much more space for military than the Aztecs (10 pop slots less than most civs).

Like I said, I am ok with one of the nerfs, but not all five (fertility, war dance, inc. damage by skirms, ruthlessness, and range). The OP of the Eagle was masked by the fact the Aztecs could boom so fast to get a full fire pit. Now, even that was nerfed.

Nothing happened to the French Cuirassier (even harder to beat late game since they can also siege). I think either the boost to eagle damage by skirmishers (x2 compared to x1.5 of dragoons) or the range was necessary, but not both along with the nerf of ruthlessness and fire pit booming / damage dance. Eagles were over nerfed! Why not just move the range merc card to Age 4 (like Port Dragoons) along with the fire pit dances being nerfed and all other boosts the same. Would’t this have the same effect but still allow a late game powerhouse when maces just won’t cut it (again, no CIR).

Now ruthlessness is arguably useless. Stealth coyotes sounds cool, but sending 4 cards to make them worthwhile is impossible in 1v1 unless you were going to win anyway.

Aztec post-patch summary for the reading impaired:
Colonial = much better
Fortress and beyond = much weaker

So what will be the new backbone of the Aztec army? In colonial, that is easy, maces. In fortress and beyond, I’m not so sure.


Here is how I plan to use them:

Build house and fire pit ASAP
Get WP on firepit gift dance
Age up with free War Hut as fast as possible
Chop wood or gold in age-up depending on synergy unit and civ playing (i.e wood versus Dutch for coyotes, gold for pumas versus some civs that may go cavalry or in a team game, pure pumas)
Build maces
Send maces
Build maces
Send more maces
Send war hut training (helps spawn WP even faster than before now) and allows you to spam your WH units without constant macro of firepit
Research fire pit BB once WH training is in so you can still keep shipments coming in from fighting (now cheap and x3 aura for WC) and swap to creating priests
Swap to war dance in large engagements as needed
Never let enemy out of Colonial or lose
There will be really no reason to go to Fortress. Eagles, Jags, Arrows? Why, pumas do great for siege and their rush is perfected. No real need for a Noble hut. This will even work in team games with a well executed team rush. Fear double Aztec rushes!

In you hated Aztecs before the patch because of OP eagles that appeared maybe once every 10 games against them, prepare to really hate them next patch. You’re not going to be able to make enough cavalry to stop the mace spam and even if you do make a few, pumas are an excellent colonial counter.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Anyway, this discussion could go on forever -- you clearly don't think that ERKs were / are too strong. [/quote]

I dunno where you got that from, I never said that :?

I said ERKs did not pwns skirms before being fully upgraded. I think they needed some sort of nerf, but most complaints I've read here are based on wild stories and no facts.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

Alright, sorry for the misrepresentation.

I still contend Aztecs will be really well off next patch.

They can still both rush and boom. Their FF has never been all that remarkable, even when ERKs were stronger.

As for water, Cyclo, water dance isn't even the main reason Aztecs are so awesome on water. Even without Tlaloc lameage in Age 2 with Offshore Support, they can still own water. That's mainly because natives in general pwn others civs on water just because they have ultra / spammable canoes, and Aztecs are the only native civ with Schooners.

I don't think Aztecs have much to worry about.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Macabee »

I think part of the problem is that many people don't have an understanding of the counter system. They might think they do, but when I see the phrase "the units they're supposed to counter", I know they don't. So it's asking a lot for them to understand the ERK's role attempting to bridge a significant gap in the Aztec unit system. Until Warchiefs, civs were given units called cannons. One type of cannon played the dual roles of anti building and anti infantry. The other type of cannon played the role of anti cannon. Aztecs received a unit called "Arrow Knights". This unit played the dual roles of anti buildings and anti cannons. Hmm, seems like we have a hole in Aztecs' counter system. There are no Aztec anti infantry "artillery" units! Because of this, ESO chose to shift some quasi-anti infantry ability to ERKs. It was a kind of a bandaid solution but that's the one we were stuck with, and ever since we've seen complaints that ERKs don't lose to units that are "supposed" to counter them.

Sure enough, it seems like the new patch will not fix the counter system for Aztecs. The quasi-anti infantry traits that were shifted to ERKs is gone. Although a few units that fight infantry were boosted, the counter system has certainly not been fixed. Where's the anti infantry cannon type unit? What unit can take it's place?

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

Mac, there are 6 civs in the game who don't have a real anti-infantry cannon unit (you really can't count light cannons nor flaming arrows, both are more useful as anti-cannons than anything else), and they are just fine. They don't need their ranged anti-cav cavalry units to be extra strong against ranged infantry.

Aztec:

Mace --> HI
Coyote ---> Ranged Infantry
Puma ---> Buildings / Cav
JPK ----> HI / Cav / Buildings
Arrow Knights ---> Buildings / Artillery
ERK ---> Cavalry
Skull Knights ---> Buildings / Cavalry


The weaknesses for Aztec with the counter system were a result of maces not being able to effectively counter HI after the colonial age, and coyotes not being able to counter ranged infantry effectively after the colonial age.

Both of those units have been boosted in the next patch for those very reasons. ERKs DON'T need to be stronger.
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by luukje »

Well I have been playing dutch for 1.5 years and in maybe 25 games vs aztec, I was rushed in 24/25 games probably. I lost 10 because of the rush, I won 10 because I resisted the rush and when we went to fortress with the game still in the balance, ERK spam owned my skirmisher spam time after time. I remember a game where I had highlander and Jaeger in the saloon and still ERK spam beat me.

Aztec were often called the most broken civ, and I must agree with that. Its not just the units, its the whole design of the civ, being very unique so balance is much more complicated.

Very strong in early colonial, unbeatable on the water, gently fading once you ran out of shiments and BB, needed your firepit spawning priests,...

So just when Europeans hit fortress and they have better units, strong shipments, mercs, cannons, aztec are weak. When aztec went fortress and needed to choose between upgrading your mace/coyotes who are crap in a long game or you needed to start upgrading your ERK. An early fortress economy that could boom like hell with fertility dance but that would prevent you even more from building any substantial military.

But once the eco got going, much quicker than euro civs, an ERK spam became just unstopable. And aztec players loved those ERK cause it was the only option. Erk not being OP like a cuirrassier, a single unstopable unit, but ERK being the perfect allround unit and in combination with the aztec super spam, being OP. More like dutch fast halberds were.

Didnt you forget ERK have rate of fire 1.5 and skirmisher 3.0, cyclo? Cause that makes a lot of difference to. With no set up, ERK are the one unit that can actually take advanatge of archer 1.5 firerate. A lot of archer units look good on paper but in real games, they just dont perform. Not ERK.


There are two civs I dont know how the patch will turn out. How strong/op will aztec be in colonial? And how weak/balanced in fortress? ANd will they be able to spam 1 unit late game?
And India of course.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

dutch should never lose to erk spam... Dutch was way more OP than aztec ERK's. Hit & run cancels the ROF advantage btw.

You all talk as if aztec can get 10 priest out of nowhere and suddenly boom at mach 3 speed and spam lot's of erk's... lol
play aztec plz

there is a good reason aztec was considdered one of the worst civs, relying on some broken elements to win.

I think your frustrations come from team games, that's where the ERK spam is really OP, not in 1v1

I do agree that they needed a nerf but stop saying ERK spam was OP in 1v1
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by luukje »

I dont rate team games that much, i was referring to 1v1.

ERK spam wasnt op in a "one strat owns all" way, like discipline FF, aztec were not OP, but in the 1/10 game that got above 15/20 minutes it really was an annoying strat without a hard counter. The longer the game lasted, the stronger ERK got and the balance slowly shifted.

And you are not reading my post very well. On my level (Pr 20-25) I always found aztec pretty competetive (and dutch were to strong). The strong aztec rush meant you always had to be carefull. They were the weakest civ in early fortress. And they stayed weak unless they got the ERK going.

And hitnrun with ERK isnt easy, once they are massed. Its speed vs range then. You can pick of a few, but ERK have the advantage they can engage when outnumbering you and retreat when needed.



The frustration came more out of being equal players, and at 20-25 minutes aztec economy just overtakes dutch.

Just like you said chaos "broken". Some nice age 2 shipments, maces do their job in age 2, BB jags. And if that failed, then just hope you survive long enough for ERK spam.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""luukje""]Well I have been playing dutch for 1.5 years and in maybe 25 games vs aztec, I was rushed in 24/25 games probably. I lost 10 because of the rush, I won 10 because I resisted the rush and when we went to fortress with the game still in the balance, ERK spam owned my skirmisher spam time after time. I remember a game where I had highlander and Jaeger in the saloon and still ERK spam beat me.

Aztec were often called the most broken civ, and I must agree with that. Its not just the units, its the whole design of the civ, being very unique so balance is much more complicated.

Very strong in early colonial, unbeatable on the water, gently fading once you ran out of shiments and BB, needed your firepit spawning priests,...

So just when Europeans hit fortress and they have better units, strong shipments, mercs, cannons, aztec are weak. When aztec went fortress and needed to choose between upgrading your mace/coyotes who are crap in a long game or you needed to start upgrading your ERK. An early fortress economy that could boom like hell with fertility dance but that would prevent you even more from building any substantial military.

But once the eco got going, much quicker than euro civs, an ERK spam became just unstopable. And aztec players loved those ERK cause it was the only option. Erk not being OP like a cuirrassier, a single unstopable unit, but ERK being the perfect allround unit and in combination with the aztec super spam, being OP. More like dutch fast halberds were.

Didnt you forget ERK have rate of fire 1.5 and skirmisher 3.0, cyclo? Cause that makes a lot of difference to. With no set up, ERK are the one unit that can actually take advanatge of archer 1.5 firerate. A lot of archer units look good on paper but in real games, they just dont perform. Not ERK.


There are two civs I dont know how the patch will turn out. How strong/op will aztec be in colonial? And how weak/balanced in fortress? ANd will they be able to spam 1 unit late game?
And India of course.[/quote]

I was with you until you got to the underlined section. LB's enmasse are a good guard for many unit and I've seen them do real damage if they have a good sheild. No units should be used by themselves for battle though..
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by luukje »

I wasnt talking about longbow being weak. massed longbow can be very effective in age 4 and 5. But there are a few big differences with ERK:

No setup time for ERK makes them easy to micro and improves the rate of fire. I read somewhere longbow fire every 2 seconds in real battle. I think ERK do better and so have a higher damage output than other archers.

The dont have a multiplier for HI, but they can outrange and outspeed HI, making hitnrun possible.

Cavalry and cannons counter archers pretty well unless you have 50 plus units, but skirmisher dont counter ERK hard enough. And even if you have enough skirmisher, ERK can just run away.

If the aztec can keep you out of his base between 10-20 minutes, it's GG.

But in the next patch, we wont have to worry about that any more.

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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by Soccerman771 »

What about carib blowgunners? They have a couple of nice upgrades for LB's. Are ERK's affected by these?
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Re: The OP Aztecs and how to lame them

Post by KingKaramazov »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]dutch should never lose to erk spam... Dutch was way more OP than aztec ERK's. Hit & run cancels the ROF advantage btw.

You all talk as if aztec can get 10 priest out of nowhere and suddenly boom at mach 3 speed and spam lot's of erk's... lol
play aztec plz

there is a good reason aztec was considdered one of the worst civs, relying on some broken elements to win.

I think your frustrations come from team games, that's where the ERK spam is really OP, not in 1v1

I do agree that they needed a nerf but stop saying ERK spam was OP in 1v1[/quote]

ERK's were too strong whenever a player was allowed to get them, whether in 1v1 or team. It was just far, far easier for a player to get them in team, just like it's way easier for a Russian player to abuse Sevastopol in team....but it's equally lame whether in 1v1 or Team, whether or not Russia is a strong civ.


10 Priests aren't incredibly easy to get, Chaos, but let's do ourselves a favor and be honest with each other. Besides perhaps the Brits, the Aztecs are the best boomers in the game. That's not to say the boom can't be countered, because of course it can, just like the British boom. But it is very good.

To Cyclo: I don't mean to offend you but your posts are always so damn long I can't really get myself to read the vast majority of them. Most of it is theory craft, though, and I put a lot more value on in-game experience than theory craft.
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