A Question that is bugging me

General Discussion about Age of Empires III: Definitive Edition

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Soccerman771
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""IndyBrit""]Soccerman,
In typical lawyer fashion I left wiggle room - I too don't think ANYONE can be an engineer, but it's a large pool of people that could. The 31 year old wins - look at what Jordan was doing at 31 compared to 24. Now at 41 - that's a little different but probably in the Ages sense not old enough to matter yet. NBA though, skills have seriously degraded at 41.[/quote]

I would say the pool of people that could go to the NBA is larger than the people that could be engineers. More people play basketball...

and I agree on the 31 v 24 v 41 year old analogy.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""IndyBrit""]Cyclohexane -
I think your engineer analogy is lacking. Engineers are a much more normal occurrence than Ages experts – [/quote]

Only because the sample size is smaller. If everyone that attempted engineering and failed also attempted AOE3, I’m sure we would have thousands upon thousands of “experts” only to find out the bar has raised. For example, Grunt may get it immediately, but if it was a commonly desirable goal, and people where dedicating their life to the game, there would be many others giving him a run for his money.


[quote=""IndyBrit""] I think a more apt analogy is saying "anyone can be in the NBA" which is decidedly not true. The NBA requires natural ability, hard work, and the luck of being selected. Ages has two of those three qualities. [/quote]

The luck of being selected is a factor in sports, which is why I choose the engineering example. I also do not believe everyone in the NBA, NFL, MBA, etc. has natural ability, unless you consider natural ability starting to train when you’re young, train when your friends are partying, and continuing to follow your dream to adulthood.

I believe anyone assuming they are not mentally retarded, can do anything they train themselves to do. I am not saying it will not take more hours of training. I am also not saying they will necessarily be the best, but anyone can accomplish any goal they put their soul into.

Notice I also did not say I do not believe in prodigies. Yes, certain individuals have it easier than others, but that is an excuse to not try. There are no shortcuts, and even the prodigies have to work their balls off, and you may never be on the level of a hard working prodigy, but that does not mean you cannot compete. If you have a goal and decide to give up without trying, because you were not “born with it”, that is nothing more than an excuse and the cowards way out. Moreover, you’re never to old to try.


[quote=""IndyBrit""] Except Chemical Engineers, of course, which require exceptional natural ability. [/quote]

I think you were joking but if not, I’m going to disagree again. My undergraduate is Chemical Engineering and my Masters is in Physics. I have friends who are aerospace, mechanical, electrical, civil, and petroleum. The exceptions may be industrial and agricultural because they typically are not math based but I am not very familiar with those branches so I will not pass judgment. The only reason chemical engineers make the big bucks is because of their close ties with the petroleum industry, not because it is more challenging.

All engineering fields are extremely challenging and competitive. I’m not trying to downplay engineering like it is some easy goal to obtain. My point is, anyone can do it, assuming they are not mentally retarded. It will just take some people many more years to do so.

Saying anything else goes against my whole philosophy of life that hard work will get you anywhere you want to be. Of course there are exceptions, like women in third world counties whose governments are so oppressive, they cannot even take a mask off in public, but that is an extreme example. Even then, I believe that if there is a will, there is a way.



[quote=""KingKaramazov""] Yea, Cyclo, we're not saying that it takes natural talent to be an engineer. Anybody can train themselves (or receive training) to do that.

More like, nobody can train themselves to become Albert Einstein or Thomas Edison. It's just basic natural ability that makes you that good. No matter how an average person tries, they aren't ever going to make themselves into Steven Hawking or something.

BTW Cyclo, geeze....concise, concise, concise! Fewer words! [/quote]

Perhaps I should rephrase that, while anyone can become an engineer, not everyone posses the belief in their self, dedication, or will power to follow through. I do agree that people with natural talent in mathematics (or science) can succeed in engineering easier than the average joe, like myself. I had a lot of catch up to become competitive with the only ones truly believing in me were my parents. This belief is engraved into my very existence and I cannot remember a time where my parents were not telling me this. That certainly does not make it true, but it works for me. Notice, I did not use the past tense “worked”.

Albert Einstein did not start speaking until he was around 3 years old, and lead a fairly average childhood. His gift, and curse, was imagination and curiosity. One of his many interesting quotes was: "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

My philosophy on life is much like Einstein’s. I’m not saying everyone can be the best, I am saying everyone can strive to be, and become competitive with the best. Learning is a behavior you must teach yourself. You just have to decide how bad you want it.

"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up." – Thomas Edison.

“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.” – Stephen Hawking.


And by the way, I may have had a few extra words but every sentence is unique and has a purpose. Not to mention I found the thread 4 pages into it. I’m certainly not making you read anything.



[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]Exactly. You can't train to be smart and quick-witted. [/quote]

Yes you can. You can also train your mind and memorization skills just like you can train your body, which is one and the same. Your brain is a muscle which the average person only uses about 5% of its processing power. It’s been proven that brain cells do form later in life and new neurological connections can be made. You can teach an old dog new tricks. You have to work your brain just like any other muscle.

I’ll say it again, if you say you can or you say you can’t, your right.


[quote=""Soccerman771""]May I buck the trend of the other two KNOWN engineers in the clan. I don't agree that anyone can be an engineer. Like anything else - you have to have desire and expertise in science/math/physics, etc.

P.S. Cheme's are not normal people...they are an aberation of the engineering profession. Waaaaay too smart and my experience is that many of them don't sleep, especially in undergrad.[/quote]

I agree, you have to have the desire, but if the desire is there, anyone can do it. That was actually my point.

Your P.S. is funny but inaccurate. We do require sleep, but by not sleeping, you have more time to study. There were some naturally mathematically gifted individuals that did not need to study nearly as hard as me. Being an engineer yourself, I’m sure you know exactly what I mean.


[quote=""IndyBrit""]Soccerman,
In typical lawyer fashion I left wiggle room - I too don't think ANYONE can be an engineer, but it's a large pool of people that could. The 31 year old wins - look at what Jordan was doing at 31 compared to 24. Now at 41 - that's a little different but probably in the Ages sense not old enough to matter yet. NBA though, skills have seriously degraded at 41.[/quote]

Is that before or after he left to go play baseball. What if he continued to train in one sport? I do not think your body begins to age until around 50 (assuming no major injuries and lifestyle choices) and even then, it does not necessarily mean you cannot compete. George Foreman was 38 when he came out of retirement and he obviously was not following the nutritionists example of healthy living. However, he was fighting successfully into the age of 48.



All in all, you guys can argue with me all day long and many of you bring up good points with good examples but I will never follow that advice. I will agree that if you believe you can only be successful because you are born with that ability, then you are 100% correct. However, I’m going to continue to raise my children with the fact that they can do anything, be anything, they dedicate their lives to. I certainly hope that their goals are not to become an expert in AOE, but whether their goal is physical or mental, I’m going to encourage it.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Well, of course it's a good idea to tell your kids that they can do anything they want in life. I never said anything against that.

I just think that natural ability plays a bigger role than hard work does.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Tatltael »

[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]Well, of course it's a good idea to tell your kids that they can do anything they want in life. [/quote]


yeah i agree, just dont tell them that they are geniuses and that they all can explain anti-matter/quarks/singularities, write sonata's or play the best basketball anyone has ever seen. try not to build up their self confidence either, all the baby boomers were told that they were LOSERS by that ruler that was just laid down on their knuckles.

they turned out alright

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Wait, what? What on Earth are you talking about, the baby boomers being told they were losers...?
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]All in all, you guys can argue with me all day long and many of you bring up good points with good examples but I will never follow that advice. I will agree that if you believe you can only be successful because you are born with that ability, then you are 100% correct. However, I’m going to continue to raise my children with the fact that they can do anything, be anything, they dedicate their lives to. I certainly hope that their goals are not to become an expert in AOE, but whether their goal is physical or mental, I’m going to encourage it.[/quote]

I kinda agree with this statement, but there is still one big element that plays a critical role: time

that's where talent and born differences start to play a big role.

I'm been training a lot in kung-f u for many years now, yet I've seen new guys that had never practised any martial art, reach a similar level in just a 10th of the time I needed...
Same goes for Magic the gathering, a strategic card game. I started beating consistently top players in no time, why? Must be a born ability.

Still, nowadays, I still practise kung-f u yet I've stopped playing magic, just because I also believe I can achieve a high level in what I want.... but it will take time

edit: plz remove 'f u' from the filtered word list. thx
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Tatltael »

oh haha oops. i had a few drinks last night, i think i was going abit off topic.. i was more or less referring to how differing ways of raising a child impact them later in life

the baby boomer generation were more or less talked down to by adults, just because thats how things were done back then

in comparison to the current generation (which i am an unfortunate part of), theyre all being told that theyre flippin genius's and that they can do whatever they set their over confident non-existent minds to

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by IndyBrit »

Cyclohexane:
I am a ChemE as well, and I knew you were, so that was a joke... =)

My philosophy is to act as if you are in control of everything, but at the end to realize that you are not. I don't think there is a practical distinction between our philosophies, but it's fun to bandy words about.

I think people should work to improve themselves. There is always somebody better, stronger, or smarter, and if you set them up as your ideal, rather than merely work toward a better version of yourself, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Nevertheless, it's good to look to high achievers as an example of what is possible, but don't think you are a failure if you don't achieve that. Neither should you stop at where they left off as you may be better than they were.

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