A Question that is bugging me

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luukje
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by luukje »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Worst is when one small mistake or looking away for one moment makes a colossal difference in the course and eventual outcome of a game....[/quote]

A week ago I suddenly had 5 of my villagers walking into the enemy base at 4.30 minutes into the game. Didnt know how they got there but they sure werent supposed to be there!

Its so hard to concentrate after that and not just typing GG.

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Shizle »

[quote=""luukje""][quote=""KingKaramazov""]Worst is when one small mistake or looking away for one moment makes a colossal difference in the course and eventual outcome of a game....[/quote]

A week ago I suddenly had 5 of my villagers walking into the enemy base at 4.30 minutes into the game. Didnt know how they got there but they sure werent supposed to be there!

Its so hard to concentrate after that and not just typing GG.[/quote]Just do the taunt that says hahahahaha! and tell your opponent that he fell for your brilliant diversionary tactic, and that you will be bringing the pain shortly. Make him nervous. Lol.

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by HuggyPierre »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Worst is when one small mistake or looking away for one moment makes a colossal difference in the course and eventual outcome of a game....[/quote]

One time i had this problem vs a major. After two battles i led with 130 - 90 points, but i didnt realized my army ran into his. First saw it when it was already too late. After that i had no chance to recover quick enough.

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

@Strokey

Heh that used to happen to me too, then I switched the B hotkey with G or sth as I often send vills to the tc manually instead of using bell.

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by 36drew »

[quote=""IndyBrit""]
Original post: Imagine yourself and Grunt on a desert island with a brand new RTS that no one has ever played but that generally plays like the ones we've all seen, and you're both going to learn the rules at the same time. You could probably play for a year and not beat him. It's largely built-in for the top guys in Ages.

In the final analysis - you and Grunt should have spent that time making a raft. Where are your priorities? Yeah sorry - too long again. :
D[/quote]

ROFL! That was great.

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Tatltael »

[quote=""36drew""]Don't kid yourself to thinking natural talent isn't a huge factor here. There is noway some people can't move anywhere near as fast as the pros. I mean, these guys are doing 250 + actions per minute and stay on top of things all the time. To be a top Age player you need to play a few hours a day, maybe 5 days a week. To be a top starcraft player, you need to play 10-12 hours a day, everyday of the week if possible.[/quote]


i disagree entirely! you can most certainly come into this game and make a significant number of actions on your first game, well after you memorize the commands.. etc. mostly because say if you play piano or guitar proficiently, your hands will most likely be used to the high strain/fast movement. as far as being on top of things thats just being self-aware.

i think the majority of these top players probably at one point played really hardcore but now just play casually. although there will always be that addict.

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]the biggest difference between pro and casual games (aka noobs), according a scientific research done in Korea (land of pro gamers) was:
pro gamers use a different brain-zone. Casual gamers rely more on knowledge, facts and repetitive moves where-as the pro uses much more what was called 'intuition' or 'instinct'. The pro is much faster at anticipation and adapting when the nooby is thrown off as soon as something "unknown" happens.
also from that research:
24 was the peak age for gamers, after that, many essential abilities start to decrease (like reflexes, eye-hand coordination, focus etc...)[/quote]

I am skeptical of these type of “studies”. I mean, how many people did they sample? What was their determining factor? What game did they play? The surge of older gamers is a new thing, the product of younger gamers growing up and having the financial capability to play. You cannot sample your average joe blow who rarely plays and determine his coordination is off. What if he never played a video game or he simply hates FPS, RTS, or RPG games? It is easy to skew results and percentages.

I’m going on 31 now and my reflexes / coordination are as good as ever. I spare 18 – 19 year olds on a weekly basis in martial arts. I do pretty well within my rank, regardless of age. As a matter of fact, I believe the me of today would kick my 18 year old ass. Of course, that is due directly to experience, which is my point.

You’re only old if you let yourself get old. It’s use it or lose it, just don’t stop. I have an 84 year old grandpa that still goes grocery shopping, does odd jobs around the house, etc. It’s lifestyle choices and how you live that determines how you decay more than what you were born into. If you want to say the majority of people make unhealthy choices that lead to early decay, I could agree with that. If you want to say a kid is going to be better at a game because he is younger, well I disagree completely.

As far as intuition or instinct goes, well guess what, the more you train the more of an instinct it becomes. You do martial arts, when you first started, the moves seem clumsy and hard to remember. Once you have performed the same defensive maneuver a few hundred times, it becomes instinct, a reflex your body performs without you thinking about it. Of course you are using a different part of your brain, it’s the same part that allows you to drive to work without remembering the actual drive but instead the hundreds of thoughts your were concentrating on. It’s simple and reinforces my point of view, the pros practice which allows them to concentrate on unexpected surprises because building villagers, houses, the map, resource selection, etc. is already instinct.

It’s more like Lazy said and I completely agree with his points on hardware, responsibilities, etc. The younger kid does not have to pay the bills, help the kids with their homework, go to work, research future investments for financial security, mow the lawn, coach their son’s t-ball, set an example for their kids, do the dishes, etc. etc. Available game time becomes an issue to adults. It’s practice that makes perfect and having a room free of distractions certainly helps. I’d never say I do not want those little distractions because I love them completely, but my kids definitely decrease my video game proficiency. Even if I am playing, I’m also answering questions about where volcanoes come from, why the sky is blue, is that an elephant, etc.

I agree that some people learn certain skills faster than others and if they invest the same amount of time as you, they will always be better. That is true, but it does not mean you cannot overtake them with persistence. Ask yourself how bad you want it, then take it. To me, I do not care. It is obvious when you look at my rank and then play me. Games to me are a break from reality, I’m not going to create stress in my escape!

My point is, genetic factors are highly overrated and could even be conceived as racist to certain individuals (depending on the topic). You can train yourself to be anything you want to be. I am convinced that anyone can do my job effectively if they are willing to make sacrifices. Anyone can be an engineer if they give up everything irrelevant and dedicate your life (at least 4 years of it) to the task. I’m not the smartest engineer that I graduated with but my grades were excellent because I was always studying. I mean always, I couldn’t take a crap without reading a book.

If you (I say you generally speaking) really want to be a top player and that is what is important to you in your life, then just do it. I think if this is your priority and you cannot support a family or be financially secure, you need to reevaluate your life. That of course is my own humble opinion. I realize some people do make a living with video games and that is great for them. Doing something you love and getting paid for it is all part of the pursuit of happiness built into Americans. However, most of these kids are eventually going to be own from their mother’s tit and forced into the real world. That natural talent will be wasted as well as their time spent not perusing an actual career. No matter how you try to rationalize it, it is only a game.

Age does not matter, and while natural talent does make a difference, good ol brute force training is more important. Saying things like its natural talent and I cannot do it because I was not born with it is nothing more than an excuse. I don’t want to insult anyone here, but those are the things cowards say. Those are the type things people put into their heads that prevents them from becoming everything they can be. I agree that there will always be people better than you in some things and vice versa, but leave it at that. If you say you can or you say you can’t, you’re right either way.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by rufio_eht »

Patience

I agree with Tuga that you first need to establish why you are here and what you really wish to accomplish.

My reccomendation to those trying to get better at anything is to break down your task into the simplest categories you can.

This is the toughest game Ive played to do that, just so much information, it takes alot of experience to understand what is happening.

Seems like every time I play when I'm doing something I've done a million times before, I'm intrigued to do it just a little bit better, and I think that is an attitude you generally only develop and continue when you have answered why you are here.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""Cyclohexane""][quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]the biggest difference between pro and casual games (aka noobs), according a scientific research done in Korea (land of pro gamers) was:
pro gamers use a different brain-zone. Casual gamers rely more on knowledge, facts and repetitive moves where-as the pro uses much more what was called 'intuition' or 'instinct'. The pro is much faster at anticipation and adapting when the nooby is thrown off as soon as something "unknown" happens.
also from that research:
24 was the peak age for gamers, after that, many essential abilities start to decrease (like reflexes, eye-hand coordination, focus etc...)[/quote]

I am skeptical of these type of “studies”. I mean, how many people did they sample? What was their determining factor? What game did they play? The surge of older gamers is a new thing, the product of younger gamers growing up and having the financial capability to play. You cannot sample your average joe blow who rarely plays and determine his coordination is off. What if he never played a video game or he simply hates FPS, RTS, or RPG games? It is easy to skew results and percentages.

I’m going on 31 now and my reflexes / coordination are as good as ever. I spare 18 – 19 year olds on a weekly basis in martial arts. I do pretty well within my rank, regardless of age. As a matter of fact, I believe the me of today would kick my 18 year old ***. Of course, that is due directly to experience, which is my point.

You’re only old if you let yourself get old. It’s use it or lose it, just don’t stop. I have an 84 year old grandpa that still goes grocery shopping, does odd jobs around the house, etc. It’s lifestyle choices and how you live that determines how you decay more than what you were born into. If you want to say the majority of people make unhealthy choices that lead to early decay, I could agree with that. If you want to say a kid is going to be better at a game because he is younger, well I disagree completely.

As far as intuition or instinct goes, well guess what, the more you train the more of an instinct it becomes. You do martial arts, when you first started, the moves seem clumsy and hard to remember. Once you have performed the same defensive maneuver a few hundred times, it becomes instinct, a reflex your body performs without you thinking about it. Of course you are using a different part of your brain, it’s the same part that allows you to drive to work without remembering the actual drive but instead the hundreds of thoughts your were concentrating on. It’s simple and reinforces my point of view, the pros practice which allows them to concentrate on unexpected surprises because building villagers, houses, the map, resource selection, etc. is already instinct.

It’s more like Lazy said and I completely agree with his points on hardware, responsibilities, etc. The younger kid does not have to pay the bills, help the kids with their homework, go to work, research future investments for financial security, mow the lawn, coach their son’s t-ball, set an example for their kids, do the dishes, etc. etc. Available game time becomes an issue to adults. It’s practice that makes perfect and having a room free of distractions certainly helps. I’d never say I do not want those little distractions because I love them completely, but my kids definitely decrease my video game proficiency. Even if I am playing, I’m also answering questions about where volcanoes come from, why the sky is blue, is that an elephant, etc.

I agree that some people learn certain skills faster than others and if they invest the same amount of time as you, they will always be better. That is true, but it does not mean you cannot overtake them with persistence. Ask yourself how bad you want it, then take it. To me, I do not care. It is obvious when you look at my rank and then play me. Games to me are a break from reality, I’m not going to create stress in my escape!

My point is, genetic factors are highly overrated and could even be conceived as racist to certain individuals (depending on the topic). You can train yourself to be anything you want to be. I am convinced that anyone can do my job effectively if they are willing to make sacrifices. Anyone can be an engineer if they give up everything irrelevant and dedicate your life (at least 4 years of it) to the task. I’m not the smartest engineer that I graduated with but my grades were excellent because I was always studying. I mean always, I couldn’t take a **** without reading a book.

If you (I say you generally speaking) really want to be a top player and that is what is important to you in your life, then just do it. I think if this is your priority and you cannot support a family or be financially secure, you need to reevaluate your life. That of course is my own humble opinion. I realize some people do make a living with video games and that is great for them. Doing something you love and getting paid for it is all part of the pursuit of happiness built into Americans. However, most of these kids are eventually going to be own from their mother’s tit and forced into the real world. That natural talent will be wasted as well as their time spent not perusing an actual career. No matter how you try to rationalize it, it is only a game.

Age does not matter, and while natural talent does make a difference, good ol brute force training is more important. Saying things like its natural talent and I cannot do it because I was not born with it is nothing more than an excuse. I don’t want to insult anyone here, but those are the things cowards say. Those are the type things people put into their heads that prevents them from becoming everything they can be. I agree that there will always be people better than you in some things and vice versa, but leave it at that. If you say you can or you say you can’t, you’re right either way.[/quote]

it's your right to be sceptical :)

But I think it was rather a big set-up. I don't think you have an idea how big the gaming world is in korea, and neither did I until I saw this documentary. If I recall well, it was on National Geographics, which is as far as I know, as rather reliable source. But you never know.

When they say "24 years old is the peak age" they talk about an average obviously, so if you are better than ever at age 31, that is perfectly possible, but doesn't change the average peak age.

What was meant with 'instinct' was a born talent. Repeating something over and over (like the martial arts moves) are a so called second skins or reflexes, but not really instincts imo.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Palehorse »

What? I thought playing @ ESO was a social life. If not then, I have none.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by IndyBrit »

Cyclohexane -
I too am skeptical of studies, especially without understanding methodologies and the like.

I think your engineer analogy is lacking. Engineers are a much more normal occurrence than Ages experts - which is not a comparison of relative utility. Saying anyone can be an engineer (a statement I largely agree with) is not nearly an equivalent to saying anyone can be an expert at Ages. I think a more apt analogy is saying "anyone can be in the NBA" which is decidedly not true. The NBA requires natural ability, hard work, and the luck of being selected. Ages has two of those three qualities.

The United States cranks out 70,000 engineers per year, and all you really have to do to be one is to pass a series of admittedly difficult tests. However, it's not a competition versus your professors, and it doesn't require physical ability. It's just a process of learning material and how to think.

I think if you said "anyone can be a (1st lieut / captain / major)" I would be inclined to agree. But player #155 (at last check) in the world is already down to colenol. I don't know what the criteria for "expert" is, but in my opinion it's at least a general of some type. If we use a 2200 ELO - that's only 23 people, if we use a 2100 ELO - that's only 162 people. I DON'T think that anyone can train their way into those ranks if they are not significantly above average in natural ability, any more than someone who is short or slow can make it into the NBA. Spud Webb made it, but he had extraordinary natural ability in other areas, he wasn't just some determined short guy. And he wasn't even an all-star just a competitive player - although anyone in the NBA is probably an "expert" in basketball.

I.E. - engineers are a much more average and manufactured role than an Ages expert. Except Chemical Engineers, of course, which require exceptional natural ability. 8O

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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by KingKaramazov »

Yea, Cyclo, we're not saying that it takes natural talent to be an engineer. Anybody can train themselves (or receive training) to do that.

More like, nobody can train themselves to become Albert Einstein or Thomas Edison. It's just basic natural ability that makes you that good. No matter how an average person tries, they aren't ever going to make themselves into Steven Hawking or something.

BTW Cyclo, geeze....concise, concise, concise! Fewer words! :P
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Exactly. You can't train to be smart and quick-witted. You can maybe hone your abilities a little through hard work, but the fact remains that natural ability is the vast majority of the factors here. If what you said was true, I know a lot of hard-working, unintelligent people who would be getting 36s on their ACTs.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Soccerman771 »

May I buck the trend of the other two KNOWN engineers in the clan. I don't agree that anyone can be an engineer. Like anything else - you have to have desire and expertise in science/math/physics, etc. 70K engineers is not a lot, especially when you consider that many of those grads are immigrants and not naturalized citizens of the U.S. There are also many that get the paper, but cannot apply the means to practice engineering. I could rant for days on this, but I'll spare you all.

@ topic. This game is a combination of simulation and strategy. I vision it as a large computer simulation. There are hundreds of variables that a player needs to adapt to in any given situation: map, opponents skill, tactics, etc. I think it comes down to natural skill, ability to measure what your opponent is doing and how to counter that, and speed. Speed kills. Also, having experience in the game to know which strats work best against certain civs helps.

As far as whipping an earlier age me? Well, the 18 year old me wouldn't have a chance, but the 22-25 year old me would have a field day.

Also, Indy regarding the skills and your pro-sports analogy...who does better in the NBA? The 24-year old or the 31 year old?

P.S. Cheme's are not normal people...they are an aberation of the engineering profession. Waaaaay too smart and my experience is that many of them don't sleep, especially in undergrad.
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Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by IndyBrit »

Soccerman,
In typical lawyer fashion I left wiggle room - I too don't think ANYONE can be an engineer, but it's a large pool of people that could. The 31 year old wins - look at what Jordan was doing at 31 compared to 24. Now at 41 - that's a little different but probably in the Ages sense not old enough to matter yet. NBA though, skills have seriously degraded at 41.

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