A Question that is bugging me

General Discussion about Age of Empires III: Definitive Edition

Moderators: Global Moderator, Age Moderator

StrokeyBlofeld
Clan Leader
Clan Leader
Posts: 2817
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:36 am
Location: Bristol UK
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by StrokeyBlofeld »

Practice will make you better, yes. But as KK said, intelligence, coordination etc are key elements to something like this. My brother-in-law for instance, had over 30 driving lessons and failed 6 times before he passed. A classic example that certain basic skills like coordination come more naturaly to some than to others.

User avatar
Soccerman771
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Sachse, Texas (near Dallas)
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""36drew""]Don't kid yourself to thinking natural talent isn't a huge factor here. There is noway some people can't move anywhere near as fast as the pros. I mean, these guys are doing 250 + actions per minute and stay on top of things all the time. To be a top Age player you need to play a few hours a day, maybe 5 days a week. To be a top starcraft player, you need to play 10-12 hours a day, everyday of the week if possible.[/quote]

One word: OCD
jtackel@hotmail.com

"Do you know how difficult it is to micro Napalm?" - Lazy_Tuga

"This isn't going to work. I've picked a water deck and there isn't even a pond on this map." - Blackadderthe4th

StrokeyBlofeld
Clan Leader
Clan Leader
Posts: 2817
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:36 am
Location: Bristol UK
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by StrokeyBlofeld »

[quote=""Soccerman771""][quote=""36drew""]Don't kid yourself to thinking natural talent isn't a huge factor here. There is noway some people can't move anywhere near as fast as the pros. I mean, these guys are doing 250 + actions per minute and stay on top of things all the time. To be a top Age player you need to play a few hours a day, maybe 5 days a week. To be a top starcraft player, you need to play 10-12 hours a day, everyday of the week if possible.[/quote]

One word: OCD[/quote]

One word??? Lol. I get what you meant though........ ;)

User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 3007
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

what kind of word is that lol
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle

User avatar
LaZy
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:44 am
Location: Ferragudo Portugal
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by LaZy »

Hmmm....

Most people have hit the nail on the head here already. The brain as a whole will be 90% decisive into ur game level. However, one does need certain other requirements do be classed as a truly skilled gamer (no matter what the game RTS, MMORPG, FPS, sims etc):

a) a true understanding of the game will b fundamental. No playa will ever make it 2 masta sarge without understanding units, unit combos, civs, map types, etc. This parameter will ONLY come from experience, on or offline game time is required here.

b) to truly be up there with the "big boys" u will also require HARDWARE! that doesnt mean that all top 100 playas have super prepared gaming PC´s but that "edge" will surely help. A proper fast dedicated internet connection backing up a processor that will allow ALL graphical options to be on highest will help, no matter what u say. Samchristy a couple of days ago was playing around with the tracer rounds graphic options. I told him to leave it on. It helps 2 determine the enemies micro skills! Yes I know that this game doesnt actually require that much processing power on ur GPU. Still, Im running a 7 year old PC which is still loading the map whilst most players have already micromanaged their initial starting vills and sent their explorers on their way. I literally loose 2-3 secs right there and the game hasnt even begun yet! In a game that requires well over 100 clicks a minute on ur mouse, if ur using a mouse from ur dads IBM u might find itll work diferently then ur top of the range gaming lazer mouse. This parameter DOESNT come with experience or ur gene pool!

c)the psychological ambient the hard-core players play at is very diferent from home 2 home. Strokey and myself have been blessed by being able to play whilst our heirs are screaming their heads off! Iamgrunt and his "mates" will surely not be thinking subconsciously about their current financial problems or responsabilities. I very much doubt half of them actually pay their own bills! No disrespect to them but that will make a heck of a diference. Playing for 2 hours after a full day of fillin´ n drillin´ forces my evershrinking brain into overtime everytime I log on! This parameter DOESNT come with experience, u either have a nice quiet office and a "blank" mind or u dont.

Please note that b) and c), as I understand them, wont make u a top 100 paya, but it will surely help u get there if a) has been fulfilled.

What u cant willingly/ consciously improve into getting to the expert league is the intrinsic side of things. ie ur intelegence. U can train it but ur either smart, not so smart or very smart. No1 will hop from not so smart to very smart by playing Soduku games and other brain stimulating games 24/7. It just doesnt work that way! Mutlitasking, adaptation, reading ur enemies strategy, understanding military macro and eco macro etc are all decisive.These things can be worked upon but essentially come from daddy´s sperm and mummy´s egg(s). The ability 1 has to decipher on the spot what ur enemy is doing and imediatly precess that information so that u can counter his strat requires amazing skills (brain power). One thing is to actually think "hhmm.. hes massing xbows, mayb ill start making hussars now" is 1 thing. Being able 2 then think how strong ur eco is in order to mass hussars knowing u have no more gold mines close by and that wood is also short to build plantations is a whole diferent ball game!

How 1 handles pressure is remarkable also. I doubt very much that when Sporting sees 50,000,000,000 disciples running into his base his heart rate acelerates as much as mine would.

Lastly but just as importantly is STRATEGY. This will be very intrisic but also (in my opinion) the parameter that can be trained. I doubt very much that 10% of our clan memebrs have ever read "the Art of War" written by Sun Tzu. One of the most amazing books ever written about military strategy, and still so very contemporary. Reading the book wont make u any better at the game but will surely give u an entire new concept of the theories behind why u play the way u play. ie why do u make an FB, why do u FF, why do u hit n run etc. Being able to c the battlefield the way Napolean, and others, saw it is fundamental. One reason we all luv this game so much is due its reality. Most payers know HOW to use ur cavalry as a mighty flanking force. Top players know WHEN to use that same cav. If Nav and myself both use the same amount of horses with the same upgrades we all klnow that Nav will do much more damage with them then I ever will, no matter how often I play.

As always Ive written far too much again and now need to go and meditate on the matter at hand.

Out

PS at the end of the day I trully think that the diference between a not so bad playa as myself and the truly top players is that they can fulfill in practice what I can only think in theory! Thay can actually make those 200 units work as 1 big team.

User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 3007
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

the biggest difference between pro and casual games (aka noobs), according a scientific research done in Korea (land of pro gamers) was:
pro gamers use a different brain-zone. Casual gamers rely more on knowledge, facts and repetitive moves where-as the pro uses much more what was called 'intuition' or 'instinct'. The pro is much faster at anticipation and adapting when the nooby is thrown off as soon as something "unknown" happens.
also from that research:
24 was the peak age for gamers, after that, many essential abilities start to decrease (like reflexes, eye-hand coordination, focus etc...)
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle

StrokeyBlofeld
Clan Leader
Clan Leader
Posts: 2817
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:36 am
Location: Bristol UK
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by StrokeyBlofeld »

To re-cap something covered by lazy about comuter hardware being a factor, it's not strictly true. I've read about many of the top players having naff computers. Here is a quote from Emil:

I think we are many who are trying to catch a few games with grunt, atleast I am.. Tho, it is not really that fun to play vs chinese, especially if its grunt behind them,, but its still fun to get a real hard matchup anytime.

if I'd have better computer, like braidon, I was shocked when I saw his graphics.. I dont even have shadows or anything on units behind buildings/trees, id spam VOD's at aS.. But kinda lags down teh comp, and smooth > lag

and I'll join the club! NP vs Grunt!! gogo haha

User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 3007
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

good hardware mostly helps the lower ranked players to get up a bit, but hardly changes anything at top levels
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle

User avatar
MrChristy
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:51 pm
Location: London, England

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by MrChristy »

I play this game allot, maybe too much (pretty much everyday) but I have a healthy social life and hold social priorety (I would rather hang around with mates than play aoe) I'm also fit and healthy and work out on a regular basis.

I gues that makes me a geek without the whole obese and no friends bit :P

User avatar
Roger_The_Rogue
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 693
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:25 pm
Location: Kaapstad, Suid Afrika

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Roger_The_Rogue »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]also from that research:
24 was the peak age for gamers, after that, many essential abilities start to decrease (like reflexes, eye-hand coordination, focus etc...)[/quote]

That is very correct. I started playing Starcraft at about nine years ago and I was quite fast that time. Now I am 30 and I play like a old man. 8O

That is why I now play for fun and enjoyment. :D

User avatar
Soccerman771
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Sachse, Texas (near Dallas)
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""MrChristy""]I play this game allot, maybe too much (pretty much everyday) but I have a healthy social life and hold social priorety (I would rather hang around with mates than play aoe) I'm also fit and healthy and work out on a regular basis.

I gues that makes me a geek without the whole obese and no friends bit :P[/quote]

Are you my twin?
jtackel@hotmail.com

"Do you know how difficult it is to micro Napalm?" - Lazy_Tuga

"This isn't going to work. I've picked a water deck and there isn't even a pond on this map." - Blackadderthe4th

User avatar
Sporting_Lisbon
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 5276
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:18 pm
Location: Lisboa

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Actually I don't think this game demands much speed. The other starcraft vod drew posted makes this game look calm and peaceful imo.

ZoRPrimE
Major
Major
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Limassol, Cyprus

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by ZoRPrimE »

Some of the many factors I see in being a top player are.

Note: although I'm no where near a top player in AOE3 I have been a top player in other games like StarFleetCommand and StreetFighter 2 (regional since it’s wasn’t an internet game.)

MAKING MORE ASPECTS SECOND NATURE

In most activities in which there can be a definitive top 10 or top 2% of players. There exists a foundation building of ability/skills where you get one ability skill to second nature status and work on new higher abilities. For example learn to ride unicycle until it's second nature, learn to juggle until second nature, learn to ride on a balance beam until second nature, finally learn to juggle while riding unicycle on a balance beam, learn to unicycle on a teeter-totter, and so on.
Soon you get to enough foundation built up it becomes incredibly hard to add the next thing. Identifying what one person posses that allows them to add the 9th 10th 1th... thing to their skills and not the guy who kept pace with them until the 8th skill, gets hard to identify. Terms such as "Natural Talent" and “Extreme Multitasker” start to get used to describe the progress of one person over another at this level.

The example I gave isn't the only way skill building work but it gives you a good outline. I knew a professional 9-ball player that told me how moving up the ranks in pool halls work. You hustle money from people to go lose it playing against people way better than you once you’re as good as them you earn money to play against even better people. So you can learn what they know and did and keep ladder climbing until you're a pro and are trying to think up ways to keep your top level status. This may not be the only way to become a pro but it serves as another example of foundation building of ability.

RELEVANT EXPERIENCE in other games.

experience in playing other RTS's once you've played at top level and/or mastered other RTS's a lot of it is simple transference. With AOE3 there would be a few new concepts that didn't exist in prior RTS's. This experience add to your repertoire of skills, strats, tactics over people who are mastering their first RTS. Things like rapid economic recovery, unit micro, resource balancing, queuing tactics, and larger BIG PICTURE strats from previous games that may apply.

BIG PICTURE STRATEGY

Understanding more completely than most what things most contribute to the win are crucial. There's a lot of ways to force the win like depriving of a specific resource, tricking people into building wrong counter unit or another costly resource investment that is easily made ineffective. However there is a level of big picture understanding that is harder to define except to say that one persons seems to be better than most.

In other games where I was a top level player I've found this big picture knowledge huge in winning, in AOE3 I have less examples but can ‘see’ it in high level replays.

THE HIGH LEVEL PLAY INNER-CIRCLE.

When you're at the top you can struggle against the highest level players and work on aspects of your game play that players not in that circle will only see in a rare game. While others polish the skills you used to get to this level you as a top level gamer are polishing aspects hardly anyone outside the inner circle touches. Your struggle is within your own inner circle hierarchy. I’m not trying to say that the inner circle is a CONCRETE boundary so much as a layering that differentiates the gameplay aspects the top 10 players work on vs. others. To some degree your ranking could be an inner circle to another extent your clan can be one, and in yet other ways a high ranked social circle.


HAND EYE CORIDNATION.

My personal experience with this is a life long friend who has been gaming since Asteroids and Oregon trail, like I have. He's consistently had better and faster reflexes than me. Once I find out a new strategy or underlying concept I can beat him in a game but only until he also knows the concept then the speed of his reactions puts him ahead of me again. The only games he doesn’t end up beating me in are games that handeye coordination is not enough of a factor or my knowledge level was just so much higher I was 3 tiers+ of play away from him and he never caught up. He tends not to pursue games where I outclass him like this early on. It may even be one of the reasons I’m more RTS gamer than I am FPS. FPS does give me carpel tunnel symptoms.

MULTITASKING

My experience is I have a very difficult boundary to pass with this. AOE3 is outside my multitasking boundary and my desire to FOCUS on conquering this barrier is no where near my 22-24 yr old level LOL!!! At that age I would have let everything else in my life sit by the wayside while I focused on conquering it. I think AOE3 has a separate the men from the boys level of multitasking boundary that more simplified RTS’s do not.

There are scientific study's that show women are better multitaskers then men but, I'm not aware of any men vs. men studies or anything that shows women excel in high multitasking online games! I believe there is also a difference between multitasking within a specific context IE: all the tasks lead to a specific goal, and multitasking any general task. The study that tested men vs. women was a any general task test.

GAME COMPLEXITY correlates to SMALLER % of TOP PLAYERS.

Seems to me that AOE3 is one of those games with so many factors that can make you better than other players that it allows for a smaller percentage of people to be ELITE gamers. Where as a game with less unit variety and less aspects to gameplay many people could MASTER it. Games that are very complex you don’t so much MASTER it as play at the CURRENT high level. Lower complexity games would have more trouble identifying the BEST player or the TOP 2%,5% or TOP 5, 10, or 15, players. The lack of complexity would offer fewer aspects of gameplay to separate the BEST of the BEST.


Well that’s my take on this topic. Precedence seems to have been set in regards to mentioning non-AOE3 games in this thread. At least as it’s relevant to this topic.
"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind

User avatar
LaZy
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:44 am
Location: Ferragudo Portugal
Contact:

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by LaZy »

Phew, am I glad Im not the only 1 that writes entire essays on subjects that r interesting 2 me.

Out

ZoRPrimE
Major
Major
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Limassol, Cyprus

Re: A Question that is bugging me

Post by ZoRPrimE »

I think it's an unwritten requirement of being in this clan to occasionally write more than most people will read on a given subject matter. However, I think it scares away a lot of readers unless it's politics then the thread might as well be stickied. :D
"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind

Post Reply