Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

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StrokeyBlofeld
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by StrokeyBlofeld »

They seem very expensive, and to use them effectively against mercs you must you a shipment card which is pretty costly if you are only using them to couter a small number of uinits.
Perhaps as suggested, a higher HP plus age relelvent upgrades, maybe a change in their mulitpliers too.

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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by KingKaramazov »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]I agree, except that spies should not counter natives, that's just pointless and kills the usage of a fine aspect in this game.[/quote]

While to a certain extent this is true, there does need to be some kind of counter to natives besides simply preventing a player from getting native TPs + upgrades.

Nav loves to humiliate me by getting Natives with lots of upgrades as French and then beating me to death with nothing but mass pike-men like Nootkas or whatever.

If I were smarter I'd use spies more quickly or rush him when he does this....but anyway, I think there should be some kind of counter for natives.


Also, you need spies as counters to deal with native scout massers (since they have no direct counter otherwise, besides the few units in the game with a multiplier against infantry units - lancer, bhakti tiger claws, elmeti etc).
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Native scout spam is just ghey. I don't know why aztec players don't do it against asian civs(I'd like to see how native scouts stand against disciples :o )

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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by Navarone_Guy »

I don't love to humiliate you, KK. I just make Indians because it's fun and I normally wouldn't do it in a normal game! It's SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
Last edited by Navarone_Guy on Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

minor natives use the normal counter system but native scouts is again one of those wierd ideas some ES gringo came up during some herbal night
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by KingKaramazov »

Minor natives do use the counter system but with a lot of upgrade cards especially with civs like France they are very cheap and have tons of HP so they become very difficult to counter with normal units.

Therefore, there needs to be a direct counter for them -- it's the same kind of deal as with mercs.
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Meh, I don't think minor natives are a problem. They require a good 5 cards, a FF, and about 800 resources to just get them to where they are. THEN you have to spend the resources to get them, and you often can only have 15 at a time. Just rush the Frenchie and he'll go down.
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]Meh, I don't think minor natives are a problem. They require a good 5 cards, a FF, and about 800 resources to just get them to where they are. THEN you have to spend the resources to get them, and you often can only have 15 at a time. Just rush the Frenchie and he'll go down.[/quote]

yeah, I agree here with Nav, and just because the french have a few upgrade cards (not even all that spectacular) there must be a hard counter?? Nah. Natives are already weak units. Your opponent knows which type you usually are making due to the limited offer there is and he even can see when you take the TP so there won't be any surprises...
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by KingKaramazov »

I don't think natives are OP or anything by any means, but like I said, just like mercenaries I think it's important that there is a hard counter there for them.

From what I've seen, they work alright as is. They are useful as a complement to your forces, and if you are a civ like French with lots of good cards, if you can manage to pull it off, you can base an entire strategy around them.

But it's not easy to do so, and I think it should stay that way. Minor natives aren't meant to replace your army any more than mercenaries are. They're supposed to be a helpful addition to your army that doesn't take up population.
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Not to mention that natives got nerfed from vanilla to twc, making native rush useless.

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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by KingKaramazov »

That's fine IMO, though. Like I said, it seems dumb to win with a native "rush" just like it's dumb to win with an Agent rush or mass mercenaries or w/e. Those units were not meant to be strategies in and of themselves. They are meant to support your armies, not replace them.
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Yes, but they can't even support them. Only some rare cases actually work, because it's often better to use normal units than natives (which are cheaper because they don't cost wood). 250w+taking ages to build the TP just makes you leave it alone.

A nice boost for natives would be making tps cost 200w when building in native site. What do you guys think?

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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by lordandcount »

Another downside of natives is that on most maps you need some kind of map control
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by KingKaramazov »

I wouldn't mind that, Sporting. That's a good change without changing the potential strength of natives.


However I think that there are plenty of natives that are actually quite useful. They are kind of expensive very early on because they cost wood but as the game goes on they aren't so much. And even early I've found great use with Tiger Claws and Rattan Shields. With some upgrades War Elephants are great as well as Chakrams. Incans of course are also quite useful. Plenty of the skirm-like natives are good too, like Navajo, Klamath, Cherokee, and so on. There aren't that many I can think of that are downright useless besides Mapuche and to a certain extent the Maya or the Carib.

But now they they've been weakened some you can't just have a whole army of natives which is a good thing imo.
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Re: Round 5: Nav vs. Drew

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

The idea was that all of them could be useful, and that doesn't happen :\ They should be cheaper. And you can't make an army with them due to the low number it allows you to get.

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