USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

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KingKaramazov
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by KingKaramazov »

My point, Lisbon, is that EVERYBODY has stuff that they will wonder about when they grow up. What would my life have been life if x, y, and z, were different?

As DrWho said, there are far more children who need a family than there are heterosexual couples to adopt them. If homosexual couples can provide homes that are better than orphanages, I don't see how you could argue that it would be a bad thing for them to adopt.

And I'm going to keep saying it until somebody says something concrete: unless you show me proof that children raised in a household with homosexual parents are somehow disadvantaged in terms of happiness, later success in life, or anything like that, I won't agree that there is any basis upon which to assume that homosexual parents can't provide just as good as an environment for children, even if it is a "different" one.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

The animal kingdom does have homosexual animals, but those same homosexual animal couples are not raising kids. We are not animals, well I guess that depends on what your definition of “is” is, but the fact of the matter is, King is right, foster homosexuals may make better parents than some of the deadbeat parents you see on the news.

He is also right in the fact that we do not know what happens to kids when they are raised by homosexuals but I am right as well, we do not know what happens (same thing, different rhetoric). I believe a conservative approach is safer, we do not know so let’s not make orphans into experiments. Once homosexuals can reproduce, then they can raise children, but last I remember, they cannot reproduce and perhaps nature has some reasoning behind that. I do not think the educated answer is to say that we do not know so let’s let them try.

I also refuse to say that homosexuality is not a choice and that we should create a new race of people (blacks, whites, yellow, etc., oh and homosexuals). It certainly is a choice as well as all the decisions you make. You cannot choose to be white (well, Michael Jackson can), but you can choose to #%^X&^@. Having homosexual parents and seeing homosexuals on 90% of the television shows will certainly make that choice, or even experimentation, easier, if not a cool thing to do. I’m not for banning free speech on TV in any manner, but when a child is on the line, I do not gamble.

Can we stop talking about homosexuals for awhile. Just like Rascal said, if this is the only thing we have to worry about, then we are in good shape. Well guess what, it is not.


Ron Paul just quit the race for being president. Now I am smart enough to realize that he was never going to be elected, but I am so disappointed I never even got to vote. The preliminaries in Texas are not until March! I never even got to have my voice heard.

To me, it is just as important to show who I am not voting for as it is to show who I am voting for so that in future elections, these issues are raised. Sure I can always use my right as an American to not vote, but there is not much to differentiate between a person not voting and your typical uneducated lazy American that never takes the time to research.

Now Ron Paul can use the $30 million in funds raised to campaign for congress the rest of his life. It is illegal to spend money raised on one position on another if you are running for both, but if you drop out, no problem. I’ve always routed for the underdog, but he said he was going to stay in the race and he has the money to continue. He lied and possibly (legally) stole if he uses the money in Congressional campaigns. Unless something comes out soon to justify his actions, he is just another lying politician and I cannot even be sure of if he truly believes what he said or just wagging the dog a little. What I mean is, if a crazy man speaks the truth, it’s not really true. Possibly taking one for the team if you know what I mean. Well if by taking one you mean collecting record breaking campaign contributions from individual contributors…

Americans like me are so ready for a strong independent to come from left field. I really wanted the crazy old uncle to crash the family get-together and force issues into discussion that every other politician is afraid to speak about. Instead we get censorship and excuses that he was not a viable candidate when he was obviously more viable than other candidates that were invited to the debates (more raised money from more individual voters). If anything, they should allow him to speak and fall on his face if he really was so bad. Instead, I witnessed fear.

I am left with McCain, Clinton, and Obama. I typically align most closely with Republicans but not in this election. I am definitely still an Independent and for the first time, considering to vote for Obama. McCain made the statement that he is willing to fight in Iraq for the next 100 years. Clinton #2 will be the exact same despite what she says except her domestic policies are also just as frightening. As a matter of fact, I cannot believe anything she says based on her voting record and various scandals she always seems to outrun. Where are our leaders? Everyone is so politically correct we protect the stupid instead of the weak.

Many people think Clinton #1 was a demi-god with no flaws except being sexually aroused at the wrong moments but as I said in posts above, his environmental policy so many morons were happy about is just as destructive, if not more, than Bush #2.

Then there are Obama’s bleeding heart policies on the economy. Raising the minimum wage will only put more small business out of business giving larger corporations a tighter grip on our pocketbooks, and future politicians. Combining that with tax increases is suicide. I cannot get myself to logically vote for him but he may cause less damage than McCain’s military industrial complex…

This thread started with Rascal saying he is disillusioned and I’m afraid it is going to end them same way. If I have to flip a coin to decide who to vote for after extensive research of deciding who will cause less damage, then there is something terribly wrong with the system.

With that said, it seems that we are not the first people to experience this feeling and will certainly not be the last. Here are a few quotes I find interesting and that still apply:



Charles A. Beard

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.


Thomas Jefferson:

History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.

Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?"

Most codes extend their definitions of treason to acts not really against one's country. They do not distinguish between acts against the government, and acts against the oppressions of the government. The latter are virtues, yet have furnished more victims to the executioner than the former, because real treasons are rare; oppressions frequent. The unsuccessful strugglers against tyranny have been the chief martyrs of treason laws in all countries."


Benjamin Franklin:

When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

Outside Independence Hall when the Constitutional Convention of 1787 ended, Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, "A republic, if you can keep it."

We must all hang together, or, assuredly, we shall all hang separately."


Sir Winston Churchill:

A nation that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it.


Eric Idle
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Soccerman771 »

Cyclo, I can only say look at the whole package. Who will the VP be? Cabinet? Don't forget to vote for Congress.

Most importantly, many, many, many people don't vote in local elections and these impact their lives more than the national scene. Mayor, city council, state rep., governor, etc...
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

I just seen this really excellent piece of advice taken from a joke e-mail and instantly reminded me of the Clinton Dynasty.

If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.
Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell out of the way!

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by RascalJones »

How about an evil with a Che Guevara flag?

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... 5&only&rss

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

Barack Obama won’t wear an American flag on his lapel, but on the wall of his Houston campaign office: a Cuban flag with a picture of Communist mass murderer Che Guevara.
reading that made me sick.
I would wanna reply to it but the curse-filter is probably gonna make it look like this: **** *** * *** *** *** ******* *** !
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by luukje »

For many young people in europe (and I think all over the world) Guevara is a hero freedom fighter, a symbol of the fight from oppressed ordinary humans against cruel, corrupt and violent dictatorship, supported by big western multinationals and covered up secret services. I dont know what he really was, but again it keeps on surprising me how vastly different the opinons on the same facts can be be when you are discussing with US people.

Obama wins again. Can clinton come back? Does anybody wants her to come back?

Obama vs McCain, who will win?

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by KingKaramazov »

I see people wearing Che Guevara symbols / icons / flags all the time.

There's a great song by Against Me! called Cliche Guevara, heheh.

Basically, I couldn't care less what flag he had in part of his office building. It just shows his youth and that he doesn't care as much about trying to preserve a pristine perfectly-packaged political image. I appreciate that.

Plus, if he indeed was the one who chose to have that flag there, I'm sure it was more for the mindset and ideals that are often behind the people who tout those flags / that icon rather than all the specifics of who Che Guevara was.

Obama may not be perfect, but he's the best option we have in this election, and I truly hope he wins.



Oh yea: I just noticed those pictures are from Fox. Hardly surprised on that one. Faux News for the win!
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by RascalJones »

Yeah. FOX planted the flags.

The Fox article didn't even MENTION them. It was pointed out on another site.

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Basically, I couldn't care less what flag he had in part of his office building. It just shows his youth and that he doesn't care as much about trying to preserve a pristine perfectly-packaged political image. I appreciate that.[/quote]

Would you be saying the same thing if that was a Nazi flag? Or if he was a white guy and that was a Confederate flag? I could go on... His views regarding the situation are important and if his excuse is 'youth' then he's not mature enough to hold the title of Commander in Chief.

I'd also like to know why you slam Fox for having this story when the mainstream left (CNN) would never show a report like this? They should be held to equal standards of journalism..
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by luukje »

First of all, its just a flag lying around in some office related to obama. He is not waving it around or has the the thing tattood on his back. There are probably a lot of southern republicans who have some kind of conferedate symbol lying around on their attic.

Second of all, it is not like a nazi flag or like a kKK symbol. The Che guevarra sign has become a symbol of supporting the struggle of the billions of poor people living south of the equator, the struggle against the consequences of blind capitalism and freetrade on poorest of the poor on this planet. I

Third point, our correspondent in washington last week said the only realistic chance for a republican vitory in the lections was throwing dirt and casting doubt. That's how they got bush elected. Het mentionned the Carl Grove guy as the mastermind behind this. Guess they have started.

And fourth: CNN "mainstream left"?!? I am almost choking on my Normandie apple pie. There is no left in the US. There is conservative right and progressive right.

We will send you Elio Di Rupo, the belgian socialist party leader (= mainstream left), he can talk to you about mainstream left. And it aint CNN. (such a shame I cant attach his picture, he looks everything a socialist party leader - ah here he is http://www.madeindignity.be/Files/media ... rtrade.pdf )

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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Soccerman771 »

Luukje, I see you're point. However, the arguement is he has a flag from another country, but won't wear or wave the US flag. Kinda makes it hard to be patriotic.

To your second point, we in the US don't see it that way. If he wants to help the poor, the help the poor through legislation. He hasn't done that.

To the third point. There are several ways that a Republican can get elected. Washington is at the left end of the spectrum as well. Throwing dirt and casting doubt is how the Democrats got elected. What have they done since gaining control of the House and Senate? That's right - nothing. And his name is Carl Rove, and yes he is a mastermind. Bush was elected because people were tired of Clinton and wanted to restore integrity to the White House. Like it or not, he HAS done that. Anyone that wants to lay the Iraq war solely on his shoulders doesn't understand the way the US government works. He didn't do it alone and the proclaimation for war must be done by Congress by LAW.

The point of journalism is to report un-biased news. CNN is by far leftist. It promotes the left agenda. ABC, NBC, and CBS do the same. Fox comes close, but tries to hard to lean right, IMO. I just want people to report the news. I can draw conclusions myself...

BTW, love the pic ;)
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by KingKaramazov »

As far as I've seen the only clearly and substantially biased news network is Fox. They don't even attempt to cover it up. It's pretty funny, actually.

I know Fox didn't plan the flag, but focusing on something as insignificant as a flag that happens to be hanging behind a desk in one of Obama's campaign offices (likely which has nothing to do with him...but even if he personally put it there, I wouldn't care) is the kind of thing they LOVE to do.

Just like when people were reporting on how Obama was educated for a short period in a Muslim school in Indonesia. It's completely irrelevant, but they love to play on people's fears and judgments.

BTW Soccerman, Republicans LOVE throwing dirt and using scare tactics. It's the thing they are BEST at. So don't pretend like it's just the Democrats who do it. The Democrats would be elected more often if they were better at dirty / slick campaign tactics like the Republicans (re: 2000 + 2004 elections).
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""Soccerman771""]
To your second point, we in the US don't see it that way. If he wants to help the poor, the help the poor through legislation. He hasn't done that.
[/quote]

So you (in the US) think Che was a mass murderer???

[quote=""Soccerman771""]The point of journalism is to report un-biased news. CNN is by far leftist. It promotes the left agenda. ABC, NBC, and CBS do the same. Fox comes close, but tries to hard to lean right, IMO. I just want people to report the news. I can draw conclusions myself...
[/quote]

I still need to see something un-biased coming from Fox... or any other media.
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Re: USA Election 2008 (Dangerous territory)

Post by Cyclohexane »

A lot of things to comment on here.

[quote=""luukje""] There are probably a lot of southern republicans who have some kind of conferedate symbol lying around on their attic.[/quote]

That may be true, but I guarantee they would not be elected president.

Here is another interesting one I seen, good old Barack Hussein Obama will not hold his hand over his heart during the national anthem either.

LINK HERE

It is definitely interesting why he picks and chooses what customs to observe. The flag may only be a piece of f a b r i c, but many men and women died protecting the meaning of that f a b r i c - freedom. The freedom for all of us to go to hell in any method we choose :) Perhaps the meaning has changed for many and that is the source of his rebellion. Perhaps, but as a presidential candidate, there are certain customs that should be followed.

It is also interesting why Barrack supporters frown on you when you say his middle name. I mean, it is what it is. My name is Jacob and it is based on a Christian name. Assuming free elections are possible in Muslim countries, I'm pretty sure that would be held against me if I ran for office, especially the most important office in the country. But hey, we are better than that, right? Wait, Mitt Romney was a Mormon and even though much more conservative than McCain, and better funded, he dropped out because of a fear of getting voters to turn up. Obama may be Christian, but he has a Muslim background and you have to admit his timing is horrible when Muslim extremists have already declared a Jihad on us.

I think Fox news is definitely biased based on the fact they would not let Ron Paul into their debates despite him beating Rudy Giuliani and raising more campaign contributions from individual contributors (many supporters) than any of the other candidates. He may be Republican, but was definitely not mainstream. They gave the excuse that there was not enough room on the bus. I think his reply was something along the lines of not with the size of their egos. Cazy old uncle in the basement or not, he is definitely the most interesting of the candidates to drop out.

All media is biased because it is created from biased reporters. Just look at this thread, everything said in here is based on biases created from childhood. It is impossible to create something completely un-biased. It would be nice, but the more extreme the candidates, the more biased reports we will have.

As far as Che Guevara goes, one countries Patriot is another countries terrorist. As far as I remember, this is an American office he is running for.

For me, it is between Obama and McCain. McCain really scares the hell out of me when he stated we can be in Iraq for another hundred years. Even if taken out of context, we cannot afford to fight that long. Russia went broke fighting the same enemies, it is not possible to win. Wining requires changing the mindset of people from hundreds of years of bias. It will not happen and you cannot kill them all.

Obama also scares the hell out of me with his democratic liberal domestic issues.

If I have to choose between these two, I’m going to have to do more digging (or flip a coin). If it comes between McCain and Clinton, I’m going McCain hands down. At least I have an idea what McCain will do, I have no clue what Clinton #2 and #1 will be up to.

[quote=""KingKaramazov""] BTW Soccerman, Republicans LOVE throwing dirt and using scare tactics. It's the thing they are BEST at. So don't pretend like it's just the Democrats who do it. The Democrats would be elected more often if they were better at dirty / slick campaign tactics like the Republicans (re: 2000 + 2004 elections).[/quote]

You have got to be kidding right? The majority of all politicians go to the same school, its called law school. Lawyers do not get their reputation for no reason. Both Republicans and Democrats frequently practice mud slinging / scare tactics and equally qualified.

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