[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]do you people even look up and test units before claiming they do beat other stuff?[/quote]
Lol
I just posted an excellent spreadsheet that can do those calculations and much more very easily. There is nothing out on the web that even comes remotely close to the capabilities of that spreadsheet. I put a ton of work into it, including testing, to make sure it is accurate. I also posted it on N3O first so you guys can take advantage of my work.
Here are some stats that are available on MNBobs worksheet or in my Quick Reference Guide: China Disciple: Coyote Man, Hand Infantry, Light Infantry
They are not infantry but because they are classified as a Coyote Man / Light Infantry, Ashigaru (and ranged cavalry because they are coyotes) do get a bonus multiplier in melee mode. Since a Disciple only attacks in melee, then Disciples make a very weak meat shield for Chu-Ko-Nus.
[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]Actually, CHAOS, I am probably THE most unit stat-savvy person in this clan. [/quote]
Huh? I wasn’t going to get involved until I seen this comment. I’ll give you much better micro, but that title is mine.
Download this and get back with me.
[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]
Ashigaru:
170 hp, 20% hand resist, 26 base ranged attack, 10 base melee attack, x3.5 to cavalry, x2 to light infantry, cost: 80 food, 40 gold.
Not so amazing, eh? Add in a few cards, upgrades, and wonders.
Ashigaru attack: +5.2 ranged attack
Close combat: +5.2 ranged attack, +1x melee to cavalry
Veteran status: + 34 hp, +5.2 ranged attack
Wonder for ranged damage: + 9.36 ranged attack.
In age 3 with just 4 upgrades/cards/auras, our little ashigaru all of a sudden have 51.26 ranged attack. That's not including diamyos.
You honestly think disciples can beat that, Chaos?[/quote]
A Disciplined Ashigaru with both 20% upgrades, Golden Pavilion Configured to Ranged attack, and the consulate set to Japan (10% attack) will be doing 50 ranged damage. If you include a Diamyo, they will do 55. With the upgrades you mentioned, 47 is the damage output. Check out my spreadsheet above, those calculations can be done in seconds (and much more) and I have verified them with in-game testing.
I agree that Disciples cannot beat Ashigaru but if China sends just 1 Age 3 Shipment (since we are comparing Fortress), those little Chu Ko Nu’s will be doing 68 damage to Heavy Infantry each and have plenty of OP shipments available for military / resources / economy. The card is called “Repelling Volley” and grants Chu Ko Nu and Arquebusier 10% attack and x1 multiplier to light cavalry and heavy infantry damage (x3 total). Remember to multiply the base damage by 3 since they fire 3 volleys per shot (which is then multiplier by the unit multiplier). Their HP is not that great but they have higher range, ranged resists, and are very cheap. In Age 4, Qiang pikes can be upgraded with “Old Han Reforms“ to make a very useful anti-cav unit (and make those Chu Ko Nu godly).
On the other hand, Japan must heavily invest into one unit to make them OP. That means a very slow start and a rush may be the key to always defeating them. Just do not rush with primarily Disciples. Of course, I have
never beat a well executed China FF as Japan against an equally skilled player yet either. I disagree than China < = Japan, I think China still has all the advantages in this match up against all civs except Dutch, Sioux, and Spanish, of which they are equal.
Also, Mongolian Scourge with Kesiks are not bad as anti cavalry combined with a Qiang pike meat shield / Chu Ko Nu backup. Not to mention those little hand mortars which make you come out of your shell and can also fire on infantry…
I’m not to sure about the China / Japan matchup, I have had loads of trouble and just prefer not to play rated games against China, but I can say this from experience: Ashigaru
do not counter light infantry. They just do a better job than all the other HI versus their direct counter (except tomahawks with infantry upgrades, Lacrosse ranged bonus, WC aura, and 25 dancers on the fire pit). If all the Jap does is spam 1 unit, he will lose. The Jap
must also make Nag Riders. They cannot do a Janissary type rush fast enough, more than 1 unit is required against an equally skilled opponent.
Japan takes a long time to get all those upgrades and enough resources to spam this unit with enough backup of Nag Riders.