Countering China with France

[deaconferal]

So lately I have been playing more and more 1v1's and do not have trouble with any matchups so far except China. All three games I have played against them I went hussar start with added muskets, which won me two games but seemed like it wasn't the best solution. My main problem was that I had a hard time microing musks onto his pikes since his CKN outranged me and would pick off my musks too quickly. in addition to being massed so heavily. So my question is, would it be easier to do as I did and start with huss, or would an xbow mass with a few pikes for the inevitable steppe shipment be easier?

[etrips888]

hard to say..coming from a china point of view I would say overall hussars are death to early china armies. I've been beaten by xbow spamming germans before, but I don't think I played it well. Standard army could probably beat that.

I would say stick with hussar/musket, as it seems like the best combo ive played against. Imo the trick is to attack them early, because you don't want their eco to start kicking in cause thats when I find them to be at their best.

[deaconferal]

I totally agree, once China gets rolling they are just ridiculous. I get my first 5 hussars out around 5:45, which isn't all that early really IMO.

I still do need to play you anyways if you remember, so we will have to play around with this a bit.

[etrips888]

Oh I remember, I just need to find time to play. Maybe later tonight if your going to be on?

[deaconferal]

Probably will have to be later in the week, as it is quite late right now and tomorrow I'm very busy. Tuesday would be good I think.

[ruminator]

Build 5 hussar, send 3 hussar card, send 700 gold. Keep vills on food.

If pwning hard keep spamming hussars, but if things are equal then go fortress and spam currs. The area attack of these beauties just eats up early china units ...

[I__CHAOS__I]

what used to work very well way back was to do a double rax xbow spam inbase (add a few pikes for those steppe riders) while getting several market ups. After you shipped 700wood, 8 xbows and 4 cdb, prepare to age up and ship 700 gold.
In age III, convert the xbows to skirms and make Cuirs. Break out when you have the 2 falcs.
This works actually vs many civs.

[Aaryn_GenD]

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]what used to work very well way back was to do a double rax xbow spam inbase (add a few pikes for those steppe riders) while getting several market ups. After you shipped 700wood, 8 xbows and 4 cdb, prepare to age up and ship 700 gold.
In age III, convert the xbows to skirms and make Cuirs. Break out when you have the 2 falcs.
This works actually vs many civs.[/quote]

very true, i hate to go so heavy on huss where a civ can easily add in some pikes and make them nearly useless, since they can't attack because they'd get owned by pikes

also with hussar+musket you'lll get outmassed badly, since you can't spam them constantly from the beginning

alwasy abuse the fact that china can't make straight ckn, so dual xbow+pike 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio seems good to me

[deadhanddan]

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""][quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]what used to work very well way back was to do a double rax xbow spam inbase (add a few pikes for those steppe riders) while getting several market ups. After you shipped 700wood, 8 xbows and 4 cdb, prepare to age up and ship 700 gold.
In age III, convert the xbows to skirms and make Cuirs. Break out when you have the 2 falcs.
This works actually vs many civs.[/quote]

very true, i hate to go so heavy on huss where a civ can easily add in some pikes and make them nearly useless, since they can't attack because they'd get owned by pikes

also with hussar+musket you'lll get outmassed badly, since you can't spam them constantly from the beginning

alwasy abuse the fact that china can't make straight ckn, so dual xbow+pike 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio seems good to me[/quote] this is where spain truly shines , no need to figure out what ratio ofwhat to spam from a rax or two , the great anti-cav cards are perfect to use on china , straight dual rax xbow spam while only having to ship anti-cav to ward off the steppes does work

[Tubruk]

I think dual rax xbow might be better than hussar as you have to try to get an equal mass early, i usually make 5 pike / 5 xbow ship 8 xbow and harrass if he had a slow age, but if he goes 300 food its usually better to be defensive. And standard army does not beat germany.

[deaconferal]

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""]very true, i hate to go so heavy on huss where a civ can easily add in some pikes and make them nearly useless, since they can't attack because they'd get owned by pikes

also with hussar+musket you'lll get outmassed badly, since you can't spam them constantly from the beginning

alwasy abuse the fact that china can't make straight ckn, so dual xbow+pike 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio seems good to me[/quote]

This right here is why I posted this in the first place. I think I will try this out and see how it turns out for me.

@Chaos: Sounds interesting. I might give that a try too.

[Soccerman771]

Ok, first of all - telling you guys how to beat China is close to blasphemy.

That said - here's the "blueprint".

1. - keep them off of wood. Raid trees, kill villages. This will hurt them more than any type of army you make.
2. - cav, cav, and more cav.
3. - the dual rax x-bow works very nicely. However, the real key to beating them is through eco. In order to keep up and have a decent age time, china has to either send 3 vils in age 1 or 300 food. Basically you have a 1-card advantage. Just by shipping 3 vils in age I and 4 vils in age II you already have an eco advantage.

IF it gets to age III, go hussar/falcs and mix in skirms. cav/light infantry means death to china.

Don't forget that you are a euro civ and 3 petards take out a village.....

[deadhanddan]

very true soccer , i dislike fighting china in age 3 and do all i can to keep em from aging , which is why i like spain so much ,wardogs alone provide that age 1 edge over them , age 2 can go either hussar heavy or bow heavy or both if abuse crate shipments ( if can manage aging alot earlier the 8 pike +bow spam used on any villages found can set a china player back for awhile ), but in age 3 china starts to show its superiority in army , cheap anti-cannons , great bows skirms with rep. volley , and manchu!!

[deaconferal]

[quote=""Soccerman771""]Ok, first of all - telling you guys how to beat China is close to blasphemy.

That said - here's the "blueprint".

1. - keep them off of wood. Raid trees, kill villages. This will hurt them more than any type of army you make.
2. - cav, cav, and more cav.
3. - the dual rax x-bow works very nicely. However, the real key to beating them is through eco. In order to keep up and have a decent age time, china has to either send 3 vils in age 1 or 300 food. Basically you have a 1-card advantage. Just by shipping 3 vils in age I and 4 vils in age II you already have an eco advantage.

IF it gets to age III, go hussar/falcs and mix in skirms. cav/light infantry means death to china.

Don't forget that you are a euro civ and 3 petards take out a village.....[/quote]

Very insightful, thanks a bunch for this. The thing is that China doesn't have an all or nothing kind of rush like some civs, they rush and then rush harder and then age and mass all to hell even more.

[danno527]

Ok being a fairly skilled France player and having just played 2 France vs China matchups i can recommend some stuff.

I find that going Hussar musket works well but instead of the usual 700 f/g for first colonial shipment you have to send 8 xbows. Granted you will not be able to spam right from the start buy you will be able to kill off china's initial rush with ease. After that you can send whatever you like but i find sending 700 wood to build 3 batches of xbows and spamming hussar works well. Hussar/Crossbow is beats old han/standard/or ming(not sure if thats the name).

My other build order that i find works well vs China is the usual discovery chop some would to build houses in transition. YOur eco coming out of transistion should be 10ish on food and 3 on gold with a vill on wood(for houses) or whatever you need.

Age up with quartermaster and then build 2 rax in your base.

Ship 700 WOOD

Have one rax build Xbow and the other build muskets.

This may seem a little unorthodox but usually if he sees your 2 raxes he will ship 7 steppes which will die miserable along side his old han. If he ships 8 CKN then turtle in your base a bit and use your TC fire, remember the TC hits hard and china doesnt have tank colonial units.

This will generaly beat the and of the chinese early combos, Remember TC fire helps vs steppes if you lose to many muskets.

Your third shipment can be either 600 wood if you are losing map control and need xbows, 8xbow/3 hussar depending if you need extra units fast or 4 cdb to get a more sustainable spam happening.

Hope that helps i just won two games vs a equal ranked china player last night using these to strategies. Ill get a record next time i can.