Is Japan overated ?

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Sporting_Lisbon
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Yes, they are overrated. Yes, boost cards when used to spam one unit are OP. Yes, they brake the counter system. Yet Japan is not OP, mainly because yumis and ashis are so expensive that losing 1 or 2 is a pain in low numbers. Japan is the civ where microing most matters, their units are very good but have (relatively) lower hitpoints for their price and their eco is plain bs, shrines don't make up ''that'' well for the lack of hunts.

Dutch, China, Spain are still harder to beat on my book. They are as hard to beat as any other civ, it really depends on your gamestyle. With my Japs and my agressive gamestyle, I have better chances of winning against an Otto player than against a Port player, eg.

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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by KingKaramazov »

I think your mostly right about microing, except I think generally speaking micro is more important for Ottos than any other civ, although admittedly jans do have more HP than ashigaru.
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Yes, Otto is a bit about microing too specially when talking about abus. Yet, jans, great bombards or even spahis don't need that much microing.


P.S. - To all the ashi whiners, I agree it is OP, but please try playing Japs for a while against decent players and check out it isn't as easy as ''age with gold pavillion, get rax, spam ashis, get upgrade card, get consulate isolationism, win'' sounds.

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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by BashUgood »

Hi Sport...

ATM I'm hitting a cold spell with Japan.. Maybe we can play a few games together?
Do you have any recorded 1v1 games with them ?
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by KingKaramazov »

It's not the HP that matters with microing so much as how many of a particular unit you tend to have. With Otto, you always have far fewer units to work with than any other civ, so each unit is worth a lot more. That's why they require so much micro.

Great Bombards and Spahis don't die quickly but they do require microing simply because you never have very many of them so you need to make them last as long as possible to get the full use out of them.

The same applies to the Japanese but I think it's to a lesser degree.

Anyways, it's not a hugely important contention.
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

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[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]Yes, they are overrated. Yes, boost cards when used to spam one unit are OP. Yes, they brake the counter system. Yet Japan is not OP, mainly because yumis and ashis are so expensive that losing 1 or 2 is a pain in low numbers. Japan is the civ where microing most matters, their units are very good but have (relatively) lower hitpoints for their price and their eco is plain bs, shrines don't make up ''that'' well for the lack of hunts.

Dutch, China, Spain are still harder to beat on my book. They are as hard to beat as any other civ, it really depends on your gamestyle. With my Japs and my agressive gamestyle, I have better chances of winning against an Otto player than against a Port player, eg.[/quote]

I disagree about their eco but like everything else you said. Their eco is decent. With the shrine wonder and the Age 4 shrine upgrade, you get about 16 villager equivalent (food or wood) from base resource gathering rates. That is no 99 but the larger military can make up for it by causing damage.

Check out my guide on the "Resource Rate - Shrine" worksheet. You can change the number of animals on shrines, live stock, toggle techs, etc. In Age 3, you can send Dojos which with the Shogunate Wonder are worth about 7 villagers each. In Age 4 when upgraded, they are worth about 9 to 10 vills each.

I agree that Japan's eco is worse than most but they have plenty of other advantages to make up for it. I do not think the are OP, but are a balanced civilization.

Nerfing their cards is going to make the civilization as a whole much weaker. Japan needs a strong military because of what you said above (micro very important). If their cards are nerfed, the cost of units should be decreased or the bonus of shrines increased.

With that said, I say leave them alone and focus on a civ that really needs it (Dutch, China, and India)!
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]I disagree about their eco but like everything else you said. Their eco is decent. With the shrine wonder and the Age 4 shrine upgrade, you get about 16 villager equivalent (food or wood) from base resource gathering rates. That is no 99 but the larger military can make up for it by causing damage.

Check out my guide on the "Resource Rate - Shrine" worksheet. You can change the number of animals on shrines, live stock, toggle techs, etc. In Age 3, you can send Dojos which with the Shogunate Wonder are worth about 7 villagers each. In Age 4 when upgraded, they are worth about 9 to 10 vills each.[/quote]

When I say their eco is sucky I'm referring to colonial, and early fortress

ATM I'm hitting a cold spell with Japan.. Maybe we can play a few games together?
Do you have any recorded 1v1 games with them ?
Sure, mate ;) Yes, I have some recs, I'll try to post some of them too.
Great Bombards and Spahis don't die quickly but they do require microing simply because you never have very many of them so you need to make them last as long as possible to get the full use out of them.

Yeah they require microing but it's different from ranged units. You don't have to pick small groups, hit n run, etc. It's not just the HP, since Spahis have area of effect damage they don't require - as much - microing, like cuirs.

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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

I can't agree that the civ is fine & balanced... those musks are simply too good and need a nerf, they pwn their counters which is not a good thing...

boost Japan in some other area maybe to counterbalance that if needed
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]I can't agree that the civ is fine & balanced... those musks are simply too good and need a nerf, they pwn their counters which is not a good thing...

boost Japan in some other area maybe to counterbalance that if needed[/quote]

How exactly do Ag muskets turn balance upside down and counter their counters. A skirmisher costs the same (in VS seconds if use berries for both), has 8 more range, does more damage without upgrades, and more damage with CIR even with heavily invested muskets. A skirmisher in Colonial is definitely better than a fully uped Jap musket in Colonial so lets look at Fortress when all the upgrades are available:

Veteran Skirmisher (0 upgrade costs):
144 HP = 206 HP with 30% ranged armor
58 damage to heavy infantry, 87 damage to HI with CIR (costs 200 W 200C and an arsenal)
Range = 20
Speed = 4.0
Cost = 183VS (using berries and mining, cost is reduced to 168VS if use hunting)

Disciplined Ashigaru (200W 100C to upgrade):
204 HP = 204 HP with 20% hand armor, 221 HP with Flintlock (10% HP to base – 250C 200W)
Base Damage: 31 damage to light infantry
Upgrades
41 with both shipments (40% to base)
47 with both shipments and Golden Pavilion Wonder configured to Ranged Damage (15% to total)
52 with both shipments, Golden Pavilion Wonder on Ranged Damage, and a Daimyo (10% to total)
55 with both shipments, Golden Pavilion Wonder on Ranged Damage, a Daimyo, and Japan Consulate (10% to base)
60 with both shipments, Golden Pavilion Wonder on Ranged Damage, a Daimyo, Japan Consulate, and Paper Cartridge (15% to base – 350C 350W)
Other possible upgrades include Socket Bayonet (20% to melee damage) and Onin War (33% to siege) but neither will help fight Skirmishers
Range = 12
Speed = 4.5
Cost = 186VS (using berries and mining, cannot hunt)

So even with a Wonder, 3 shipments, a consulate, and researching 3 technologies costing 750W, 700C, the damage and range is still less than a skirmisher (87 to 60, 20 range to 12). Moreover, the HP is about the same but the skirmisher costs less. Now I did not include infantry upgrade cards for the skirmisher but many civs have them. Even if they do not, they can upgrade their economy with those cards making skirmishers cheaper.

The only civilizations I feel sorry for are the ones without CIR (Aztec and India but I don’t feel sorry for China). Everyone else can counter Ashigaru.

Now if you want to include Naginata Riders in the argument, then you need to include ryuters, dragoons, eagle knights, etc. You cannot compare a unit combo unless specifically compared against another unit combo. I’m not going to go through all these so I will leave Naginata Riders out.
Ashigaru do not counter their counters, especially if you spend equal amount of resources. If you also send equal amount of upgrades, no possible way to say they counter their counters. Well, I agree they counter maces but so does pretty much any HI (especially a fast one).

Now if you counter an Jap musket with a falconet, now you are talking. Japan has trouble with mass artillery. Thier best bet is Yas archers but a musket / Yas archer combo is bad because 1 unit (the skimisher) counters both.

I think if thier damage cards are decreased, which would be ok if only done slightly, they need some type of boost to thier economy (a slight boost to shrines would work). Maybe just remove one damage card and replace with an HP card instead but I'm not so sure that would not make things worse.
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

The only civilizations I feel sorry for are the ones without CIR (Aztec and India but I don’t feel sorry for China)

You won't feel sorry for China because they do have a card that works like CIR for ckn's and arquebusiers :)

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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

hmmm, Cyclo, in a very comon situation, a skirm will do 36 damage to heavy inf and a vet ashi will easily deal 55 ish damage (-30%rr = 38)
this is nowhere near how the counter system should work
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

will easily deal 55 dmg

:) Skirms will easily deal 54 dmg with CIR and you are adding cards. For it to be fair you must add eg dutch's or french's skirm cards to make up for the bonus.

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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

CIR is really hard to get early, and civs like spain dont have cards for their skirms. I know it's with cards added, but those are logic plays during real games, not paper wars. Dutch is prob the only one which has played cards to boost their skirms

even if a skirm deals 54 dmg it will need 4 volleys to kill a ashi which is the same amount an ashi needs to kill the skirm.... = not a balanced counter-system
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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

true, yet, 20 range skirms will frighten up the ashi army for sure. With micro from the other player, you are gonna lose a lot of ashis before you get close enough. Lol, think it this way - the jap player spent 2 cards getting ashis more attack, the other player can spend 2 cards getting better eco, like a vill shipment in colo and refrigeration or royal mint in fortress. Better eco will help you outspam him.

Look, I know it brakes counter system but it doesn't give you free wins or sth.

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Re: Is Japan overated ?

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]
Look, I know it brakes counter system but it doesn't give you free wins or sth.[/quote]

that said it all :)
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