Just noticed something

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Cyclohexane
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Just noticed something

Post by Cyclohexane »

I just noticed that the new light infantry in the game, Bhakti Temple Tiger Claw, Shaolin Temple Rattan Shield, and Disciple are not countered by ranged cavalry! They are countered by heavy infantry in melee since all heavy infantry gets a bonus tag towards "light infantry". However:

The coyote runner also gets a penalty from ranged cavalry because all ranged cavalry gets a special bonus towards this type of unit (an individual line in proto file). Ranged cavalry does not get a bonus towards the other types.

The Eagle Knight does not have a penalty versus other ranged cavalry (same as before) but all skirmisher type units get a special line item against them.

It seems BHG was as confused as most people will be with this counter system and either forgot to include them, or I am missing something here...

This means that the light infantry from minor natives and disciples are much more effective since they only have 1 true counter, and that is heavy infantry in melee.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

EDIT: Disciples are countered directly by ranged cavalry due to a new TAD tag I overlooked called "Coyote Man". The rest of the post is true.
Last edited by Cyclohexane on Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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36drew
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by 36drew »

Man i'm confused. LOL.

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I__CHAOS__I
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

as far as I know it's true what cyclo said
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by KingKaramazov »

You know what I noticed while playing India?

When you ship "Distributivism," is tells you that "Agrarianism" has arrived when the shipment arrives.

Strange bug.
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Hmmm...
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RascalJones
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by RascalJones »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]You know what I noticed while playing India?

When you ship "Distributivism," is tells you that "Agrarianism" has arrived when the shipment arrives.

Strange bug.[/quote]

Yeah, I think I posted that to the bug list on heavengames. Weird.

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BashUgood
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by BashUgood »

^ I'm with drew...

Cyclo you make my head hurt.... Tell me something simpler like 2 + 2. ::/
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Cyclohexane
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by Cyclohexane »

Basically coyotes are treated exactly like heavy cavalry (although the bonus damage done to them is slightly less) and eagle knights are treated just like ranged cavalry.

What is strange is that all the new abstract infantry in the game does not have any penalties versus other ranged cavalry (with exception of Disciples). So if you make ranged cavalry hoping to make a direct counter to Bhakti Temple Tiger Claw or Shaolin Temple Rattan Shield, you are wasting resources. The only unit that receives a multiplier (direct counter) is heavy infantry in melee. That is because BHG did not want to write a separate proto file item for each ranged cavalry unit versus this type of unit.

To make things simpler, ES should have made the Aztec coyote tag called abstract heavy cavalry and the ERK called abstract ranged cavalry. Then these new units could belong to the abstract heavy cavalry class and be countered by HI in melee and ranged cavalry (just like coyotes are).

I guess ES figured it was just two units (in TWC) so why not just call them light infantry (a classification people used to describe skirmisher units, but not a proto file classification). Then all heavy infantry in melee gets a bonus to light infantry (that’s why the UI says pikemen get a bonus to light infantry - this is directed to this abstract infantry type, not skirmishers) and ranged cavalry get a special line item to coyotes.

Sorry, I cannot explain it better than that. It is confusing and a bad programming management decision if you ask me. In most games, it does not matter. To the hardcore RTS gamer, it is huge.

What I am saying is, use Bhakti Temple Tiger Claw and Shaolin Temple Rattan Shields against ranged cavalry with no fear (coyotes get mowed down from ranged cavalry). Just run away from heavy infantry and you have no counter.


EDIT:
Actually, in addition to melee heavy infantry:

• Bhakti Tiger Claws are countered by artillery and spies.

• Shaolin Rattan Shield are countered by spies (infantry tag is missing so I am guessing artillery does not get a bonus multiplier to them - just like cavalry)

• Disciples are pets with the light infantry and (a new TAD tag) coyote man tags so heavy infantry in melee and ranged cavalry will get a bonus multiplier.
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ZoRPrimE
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by ZoRPrimE »

Cyclo have you looked at Urami? I know some people would love to know what counters them!
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RascalJones
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by RascalJones »

From MNBob's chart, it appears Heavy Cavalry is the best counter to Urumi. They have 30% ranged resistance, and do not have bonuses against Heavy Cavalry. Basically, it looks like they counter the counters to heavy cavalry - Heavy Inf, Light Cav, Eagle Knights.

That's actually pretty good to know.

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Cyclohexane
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by Cyclohexane »

[quote=""ZoRPrimE""]Cyclo have you looked at Urami? I know some people would love to know what counters them![/quote]

Urumi Tags: Urumi, Hand Infantry, Infantry

So they are basically skirmishers with a 2 range attack. Heavy cavalry and artillery will counter them. They even get the same bonuses to heavy infantry and ranged cavalry (and as Rascal said, ranged armor).

They are just tough because of area damage, a ROF of 1.0 (fastest melee in game), and nice hit points.

Print out the "Unit Classification & Counters" worksheet in my guide. All the units in game are there one a 1 page list.
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36drew
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by 36drew »

^Cyclo, that's really dumb then because melee HI really isn't all that practical IMO as a counter -- it gets mowed down to nothing all too often. ESO needs to fix this.

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Cyclohexane
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Re: Just noticed something

Post by Cyclohexane »

Shaolin Rattan Shields are excellent units not because of what they are, but because of what they are not. You need spies or HI in melee as a cost effective counter (artillery has no bonus).

High speed (6.25), nice HP (185), decent damage (15), reasonably priced (50F 60W), nice tech upgrades, better armor than a coyote (20% opposed to 10%), and you get 15 per trading post. I wouldn't use them as the main force, but making them instead of a stable for certain civilization is a very viable option as well as a good idea. 15 of these guys is a scary raiding force.

They have a tech that grants 50% damage available in all ages as well making them comparable to cavalry and way superior to coyotes (in addition to the standard 25% / 25% / 50% upgrades in the ages). Coyotes only come close to this unit after upgrades and a minimum of 2 shipments! Even then, coyotes are countered ranged cavalry. The only thing that can catch these guys are spies and they cost more (208 vr 195 VS).

Look for them on Mongolia, Silk Road, and Yellow River.


Tiger claws are not bad either. They are slightly slower (6.0), less HP (150), but cost less (190 VS) and you get 18 per trading post. Keep them away from artillery (are tagged infantry) but close to light infantry (x2 multiplier for 30 damage), do not fear ranged cavalry!. They also have much more siege damage and some very sweet tech upgrades (especially for Japan).
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