India Series

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KingKaramazov
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India Series

Post by KingKaramazov »

I've decided to try to work on India. I'll be posting good games that I have as India here, both losses and wins (if they are close).

Comments or advice would be much appreciated. :)


First game:

Me vs Nav, India mirror match. Fairly close game until he gets some better fortress age units and gets the trade route secured. Advice please. GG
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Re: India Series

Post by ZoRPrimE »

I'm working on India too. Had a good game with Severe today unfortunately didn't get a record. I also have a practice with a 1st LT playing Sioux. I survived much longer than I should have but it is working well. If I had the strat down better I would have won, he was very cautious for some reason. Really delayed his win. Massed quite a few Wakina.
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Re: India Series

Post by Macavity »

Just some thoughts on a straegy I am working on. I have decided Fast Fortress is the best of all worlds for India if possible. However I now have some contengency plans in place to get there.
---These are India LVL's 25-40 strats...
--------------------------------------------
---Play the wood trickle card first. Send all villies to food until you have 800, then send all back to wood to get villies processing again. Age up with Agra fort very close to your TC.
---Second age play the 4 Sowar card and start scouting. What you find determines the next step. If you find your enemy is going Fast Fortress, play the Villager build time increase card second. You will need it to perk up the economy.
---If you find they are going to attack, determine what units are likely and play cards to help counter. If it is LI/Archers, play the two Camel upgrade cards and build a stable and start pumping out the Sowars. If it's HI play the 5 Sepoy and 5 Rajput card, build some Gurhka's. Try to play defensively so you can still age as quickly as possible. If it's a cav rush, build a stable and build Zamburaks and play the Villager build time increase card.
---Always use your Sowars to raid villies if possible. Also don't forget to build a consulate. I like the 4 spy option using the British in the second age and the 5 petard option in the 3rd.
---Not that I am nearly as good as you guys, but maybe you can grasp a couple of ideas out of my strategies...

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Re: India Series

Post by ZoRPrimE »

Macavity you mean the 'My little India strat' that I linked in the TAD strategy forums! with some minor variances. That you initially poo poo'd!!!!

I watched the record and thought it was pretty good, for some reason I glossed over the fact it was a mirror until I started watching the record.

I thought KingK had a good use of rajput @ 15min time frame. Which got me to look at rajput stats closer. A slightly upgrade sepoy is basicly a rajput that is only 3 damage less in Hand to Hand more HP and ranged. I'll have to check the rajputs cost, I'm not sure I'd build them over sepoys. I could always just dedicate some sepoys to Hand to hand and cover any role rajputs serve.

Harley was more effective in combat and used his armies as 2 or more seperate armies that converge quite effectively early on and as bait to drag you away from your defences and towards his later. I was surprised after the first battle that Harley was idle outside your TC shot range but didn't start seiging your rax, wonder, or nearby house.

Nav was a lean efficient machine he only had the agra fort and a consulate until around 16 minutes he built his first rax then a stable.

KingK was quite effective with Sowars unfortunately Nav usually had the unit advantage and well we all know how much Navs micro can sting!!

It was also interesting to see both of you didn't build a single elephant or if you did it was way at the end and I just didn't notice.

looks like KingK could have been served well by having a 2nd/FB just to his east and spending a few of his sowars on raiding Nav's unprotected starting base and ECO center.

Alltogether it was a well played game and I suspect Nav may have been easy on you but, he may have just been safely playing for the win. Good record to watch.

Blayzer should be watching this match too!!!
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Re: India Series

Post by Macavity »

---Hey I didn't Poo Poo the strat. I said that the recordings showed very unagressive competition. I still believe that if he had played a very agressive player he would have been over whelmed.
---Also I just recently went over lvl 25, so I am just now able to use the wood trickle card. I want to start using the Urami units that are available via HC shipment only. Everyone seems to think they are very powerfull.

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Re: India Series

Post by ZoRPrimE »

I like the Urami! In age 4 it seems that the Urami infinate card doesn't have restrictions if you still have Urami alive. Like for example the aztec 30 Native INFINATE cards can only be sent once your prior 30 Mayan or Zapotec are dead. The Urami INFINATE card let me send Urami again even though some of mine were still alive.
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Re: India Series

Post by KingKaramazov »

Zorp I agree generally speaking I'd rather have Sepoys but a couple things:

Rajput are faster -- they're sort of like rods in that respect.
Rajput cost wood and food, which is what I had a surplus of. At that point I was saving all my gold for Sowars.

I agree, raiding Nav would have been a good idea. I was too worried that the second I ran my Sowars from my base that Nav would attack. I should have raided him anyway. Also, I'm not sure the Tower of Inspiration was really worth it. 400 wood is a good age up but the Inspiration ability itself is on such a long cooldown and most people will immediately withdraw from a battle the second you use it and then attack again when it's over.

I really needed to be in the Fortress age though. The game was pretty close until Nav got to the fortress age and was able to beat me with stronger units.
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Re: India Series

Post by NEO_CrAz3n »

Nav is a master at flanking. He does it very effectively. I haven't watched this game yet but I'll bet he did it multiple times. Fog Of War is definitely his friend.
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Re: India Series

Post by blayzer13 »

fog of war is everyones friend..and their worse enemy

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Re: India Series

Post by KingKaramazov »

This was a fun game to play, I must say. Honshu is probably one of the most fun maps, but it is definitely also one of the dumber ones.

This game is an example of the way you should play on Honshu if you want to get the advantage. :D

I knew my opponent was Chinese and this was my only chance, so instead of attempting to actually beat him in Colonial on land, I took to the water, boomed a bit, and then frustrated him into resigning before I got a chance to wipe him out with my growing army.

It was funning watching this after from his perspective and realizing he probably thought he had totally destroyed me effortlessly until he saw my score rising and then found my base on the southern island. ;)

Warning: If your computer can't handle sea battles, don't bother watching.

Warning 2: If you try this strategy yourself keep in mind it takes a lot of macro - there's so much stuff to pay attention to with rebuilding your base and putting fishing ships onto fish / whales, getting boat upgrades, attacking on land and sea, setting up defenses, etc. I'm not trying to talk myself up, so to speak...I definitely did not do the best job I could have managing all the resources I had and doing all the little things I had to be doing.

But despite all that, it's fun as hell. :twisted:
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Re: India Series

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

great game KK!
:D
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Re: India Series

Post by Comadevil »

Nice game KK, but i wouldn't continue to use this strat at least if u play with standard victory condition.

Ur opponent was totally dumb. Seems to me he's just a chinese lamer
1. He didn't explore ur camp to find out what u are up to, a smarter player would have explored ur camp to find out what u are doing. No villagers no army, so your strat is quite clear.
2. If he wouldn't have razed down ur TC like a dumb boy after knowing u have no army on the main island u wouldn't have been able to build up a TC on the other island because u were still Age2. U would have been forced to go fast to Age3 to get more villagers. HE could have waited with razing until u were Age3
3. Ur opponent was to sure of himself or he was not able to boom else he would have been much stronger. Many res left, almost no market upgrades, no 2nd and 3rd TC in Age3, big gaps in villi production.
4. Counterstrat to urs is quite clear: Booming up to Age IV, building army ,putting castles and TCs near TPs, grab TPs and win by trade monopoly. So no need to enter ur island.Normally u would be behind in economy because of spending so much res on ships and of leaving many buildings behind which just get razed

But in the end it comes to this: You were smarter in this game and outplayed him

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Re: India Series

Post by KingKaramazov »

Well, the idea is that most players will not think that I might do this strategy because it is unexpected.

Also, as I use it more often I will hopefully get better at building an actual army and attacking on land more quickly.

Plus, if he doesn't destroy my TC and I need one on the other island I can just delete the original, lol.

My execution is not perfect but I think this is the best way to fight on that map, at least in a matchup where I think I'm bound to lose on land anyway. If I thought I had a chance on land, I would try to stay on the island and then expand later. As it is, against China the best strategy is to hope they are a one-trick pony lamer and catch them by surprise and then use my stronger sea economy to beat them on land.

Allowing them to get to Age 14 and build up a ton of towers on the side is a bad idea.

Also, I'm not sure they can get trade monopoly without the TP on the bottom, but I could be wrong. Most players won't think to do that anyway, and like I said, the ideal is to have an army on the land to make sure they can't get far enough to do that.


Lastly --- Drew did pretty much as you outlined when I did this against him in an earlier game, only I was Spain. I was able to give him a hard time well into age 5 until his stronger eco and some tactical mistakes on my part led to my loss. Again, if I get better at playing with this strategy on this map and am able to attack on land earlier, this wouldn't happen.

I am confident that doing that sort of thing is the best way to play on that map (which as I've said over and over, is why it shouldn't be a standard map....no other map encourages you to abandon your main base, and no other map requires you to play so differently in order to win. if Honshu is a standard map, they might as well make half the other island maps standard maps).
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Re: India Series

Post by Comadevil »

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]Well, the idea is that most players will not think that I might do this strategy because it is unexpected.
[/quote]
Yes, that can be. But no army on the main island to defend urself can raise much suspicion esp. if villies are attacked and there is no response. Also many won't wait so long with attacking u the higher ur opponents are in PR. At least u should have a little fake army on the main island, so it isn't so clear. And u have to keep in mind that ur opponent was very lazy with his economy else he would have been economically far better.


[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
Also, as I use it more often I will hopefully get better at building an actual army and attacking on land more quickly.
[/quote]
I think u just spend too much res on fortifications and ships early on on the small island

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
Plus, if he doesn't destroy my TC and I need one on the other island I can just delete the original, lol.
[/quote]
Sure, didn't think about that because that is very unusual :p but u still have to keep it as long as u suspect ur opponent didn't guess ur strat yet. And u have to see to get produced villies to the other island or have a big gap in villie production

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
My execution is not perfect but I think this is the best way to fight on that map, at least in a matchup where I think I'm bound to lose on land anyway. If I thought I had a chance on land, I would try to stay on the island and then expand later. As it is, against China the best strategy is to hope they are a one-trick pony lamer and catch them by surprise and then use my stronger sea economy to beat them on land.
[/quote]
Yeah sure. But don't forget he was also on sea though i didn't count his fishing boats

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
Allowing them to get to Age 4 and build up a ton of towers on the side is a bad idea.
[/quote]
Also sure, but he had the res to get to Age IV, about something he didn't bother about. Also if he kept his economy better running he would have had enough res to build up an actual army.
And he didn't even bother to spend his many res what a good player should do. Market upgrades he also alomost didn't make which give a 30% bonus to res if all is developed

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
Also, I'm not sure they can get trade monopoly without the TP on the bottom, but I could be wrong. Most players won't think to do that anyway, and like I said, the ideal is to have an army on the land to make sure they can't get far enough to do that.
[/quote]
U must have more than half TPs to begin with trade monopoly. Honshu has 2 TP on the main island and one on the south. So the intention of the map makers are quite clear, that it shouldn't be so easy to go to another island, turtle there like hell and wait till the other gives up totally frustrated. Sooner or later before Age IV u should begin with fighting.
At least i would think (and team players i think too) about TP because in team games u have it more often that someone just hides a villie somewhere, although he is dead. Grabbing TPs, trade monopoly and drinking a cup of coffee ends that without going V and developing spies.

It is just a big gamble.



[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
Lastly --- Drew did pretty much as you outlined when I did this against him in an earlier game, only I was Spain. I was able to give him a hard time well into age 5 until his stronger eco and some tactical mistakes on my part led to my loss. Again, if I get better at playing with this strategy on this map and am able to attack on land earlier, this wouldn't happen.
[/quote]
Does a rec exist?

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]
I am confident that doing that sort of thing is the best way to play on that map (which as I've said over and over, is why it shouldn't be a standard map....no other map encourages you to abandon your main base, and no other map requires you to play so differently in order to win. if Honshu is a standard map, they might as well make half the other island maps standard maps).[/quote]
Well u are more encouraged by the fact that Indian is UP and China OP, else i think u wouldn't think about so much, except if u really want to do something else or surprise ur opponent, would you?

Overall i must say i watched it more from the view of the chinese player. If u are able to improve ur strat and be much faster than in this game, then it might work
Last edited by Comadevil on Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Series

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

I got paired against a chinese (surprise surprise) yesterday in QS and it was this map. I should have water boomed and run off to the islans but instead I tried my BB rush and failed (there was some lag that really helped his CKN at killing my jags)
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