Kaiser on 2v2s

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Kaiser_von_Nuben
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Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

I really have trouble with 2v2s. But I am learning more and more every day. I am the type of guy who needs a ready bag of tricks before any game, and AOE3 lends itself to assembling lots of tricks in your bag. You just have to practice them until they become second nature. The true art comes out when you improvise according to the pressures of the individual game, but without a solid knowledge of the basics, you never even get to that point. The more instinctive responses you can put together, the better you'll be.

Why is this relevant in 2v2s? Because I find them tougher than any other game mode. I can handle 3v3 and even 1v1 better than 2v2. In 1v1, it is all you. The game rises and falls with you. You can directly influence the outcome with your experience and skill. In 3v3, it is a true "team game" where each player plays a distinct "paper rock scissors" role that should lead to a win if well executed and timed. But 2v2s are a different story. You can't just play a "single role" in a 2v2 they way you can in a 3v3, and unlike 1v1s, sometimes you can play your best and still lose if your ally has a bad day, bad hunts or just gets a funky map position. This makes every 2v2 game quite an adventure, especially if you've never played with your partner. As I wrote earlier, however, the more automatic "tricks" you learn, the better you'll be in figuring out what to do. Below I list some stuff I've learned playing 2v2s:

1. Cav or infantry? Obviously this will depend on your scouting in the final analysis. But you can make some early assumptions based on the civs you're facing. Let's say you expect to meet up with LBs or other archer-type RI. If you're Russian or Dutch, that kind of rules out strelets and skirms, because in a straight-up brawl, archers beat skirmisher-type RI. So you have to figure some cav in the mix. And you definitely don't want to go musket/skirm RI against archers; they beat BOTH. By contrast, if you're facing civs that don't have archers--especially the Russians--commit at least one player to cav. It's worth it! That goes partially for the Dutch, too, but I have been involved in several games where some oddball goes Dutch pikes and that just messes everything up after I've built a bunch of uhlans or hussars :oops: Aztecs don't have archers, either, but unlike the Russians, it's risky to go all cav because they also can drop the best pikes in the game on your head, plus skull knights that eat 2 horses (area damage) for breakfast. One additional point: You should be hesitant to use HI and muskets against the Russians and Dutch for the same reason you should presume cav against them: Their strels and skirms crush muskets in short order and can hit and run you to death (unlike archers).

2. Find their base...FAST. This is critical to understand what combo your opponent will use. You need to make an early assumption about what your opponent will do, but try to confirm it by checking out their military buildings. I will never forget assuming in one game that an Otto player would go abus (to me, seemed the best choice for the money), so I blindly went cav. In fact he went jannies, while his Japanese ally went cav, too. If I had scouted better, I would have seen the barracks and would have abandoned my cav build.

3. OP Combos: I've found that there are some truly mega combos out there that are almost sure things. Most of these involve the abus gun as the RI component. Match abus with age 2 ranged cav like zamburaks or bowriders and you have a lethal weapon in your hands. No infantry can stop protected abus, and if they're hemmed in by a bunch of zams, cav can't touch them. Archers might beat HI and skrims, but they can't hold a candle to a mass of abus. They might as well just delete themselves. Muskets are always a great match for abus, but they are not as good as ranged cav when it comes to killing hand cav at a distance... and you want to keep cav as far from the abus as possible. BUT: I was in one 2v2 where the Russian player literally spammed so many strelets that he was able to outstrip the Otto's abus production. My mistake in that game was using muskets to protect the abus. Strels easily countered the muskets and were able to overwhelm the abus. If you're facing Russia, it's always smart to have some cav to counter the "strelet mob" possibility. If I had hussars in that game, I would have eaten into the strels while the abus would have wiped every one else out.

4. Are there Japs involved? This can help or hurt you. If you have a Japanese ally, consider your options. You could rush with ashis and whatever you can offer, be it LBs, cav or skirm-type RI. Or you could comfortably defend while his shrine econ goes sky-high. I have been in 2v2s where we won simply because the other side didn't pressure us enough. Once the daimyos rolled in and the shrines started pumping, there was literally nothing they could build to stop Japan.

5. Flexibility: I love to play Germans. In 2v2s, though, they are downright tricky to use. For one thing, unlike a 3v3, it is not always the best idea to just spam uhlans right off the bat. If the enemy hits you early with pumas or pikes or a lot of muskets, 190 HP uhlans go down quicker than most infantry, even at range as you try to flank around some muskets. I've found that you need to mix in some RI with the Germans early game, unless you have an ally with really good RI. But if your ally is spamming muskets, you MUST send some RI, because you can't trust muskets to clear away other muskets or pikes while the enemy RI is munching your friend's muskets. In that case, your own RI can focus on the enemy HI, THEN you can send in the uhlans. Having said that, I don't like hand cav/archer combos. Archers are awesome once they get going, but that opening animation really can hurt them if the other guy is blasting away with 33 strelets or something. I've also found it hard to quickly switch targets with LBs, which can cost your ally all his cav as you struggle to pick off a few pikes running through a mass of other units.

In sum, when you play a 2v2, you need to know your civs. Do they have archers? Could abus be a factor? Will they have a lot of cav? Should you have a lot of cav? Will they defend and try to fishboom? You can answer these questions simply by studying your civs. The more you can internalize and anticipate, the better you'll be. Despite all this, I still get nervous before 2v2s, because I never know what kind of novel, unfamiliar stuff my opponent might try to pull! But I do my best to anticipate what's likely...and I seem to be improving. After all, the more experience we have facing situations, the better we guess in the future. In a game where seconds count, being able to make educated guesses under pressure is essential.

Finally, I list some of my preferred 2v2 combos... feel free to employ them, but always consider whether they would be appropriate under the circumstances you're facing:

German/Brit: Uhlan/LB/Pike (great all-round... plus you can raid, pressure and boom at the same time)
German/French or German/German: 4-rax colonial infantry spam (one does pikes, the other does xbows... easy, high-siege and can mass tons fast. Weak against archers, though)
Spanish/Brit: LB/pike with team fast archaic inf spam (good all-around, but Spain takes a while to get going... plus this is pretty micro-intensive)
German/Russia: Uhlan/strel plus shipped cosscks (good even against archers, but bad if both enemies have enough cav)
German/India: 14xbow/uhlan/sepoy rush with agra (can win games in 8 minutes or less)
British/British: LB/musket (with good micro can beat all infantry and cav, but weak against abus or massed cav)
Russia/Brit: Strel/musket spam with shipped cossacks (easy and pretty great unless there are massed archers or abus)
China/Brit: Old Han with 9 pike shipment/musket rush, later hussar if needed (great all-round)
Sioux/Dutch: Axe Rider/skirm (good but watch out for massed cav.. ARs can't kill them all, and if they can't, the skirms are dead)
Japan/Dutch: Ashi/skirm (very solid if pressed hard, but weak against archers)
Aztec/Brit: Mace/coyote/musket (great, but vulnerable to archers...that's why God made coyote :twisted: )
Otto/Brit: Abus/musket (simply OP, but watch the timing... if the abus get caught before the muskets come out, it's GG)
Otto/India: Abus/zamburak (see above... nuff said)

Thanks for reading, guys! Feel free to add your own suggestions. I know there are plenty of other great combos out there... I only mention the ones I've used with civs I know.
Last edited by Kaiser_von_Nuben on Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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36drew
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by 36drew »

I'm gonna print this off to read LOL.
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""36drew""]I'm gonna print this off to read LOL.[/quote]

Yeah, it is long enough to be in a paper format haha :D It just came out so naturally!
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by lordandcount »

I miss my combo: iro with india, super fast super strong rush :). A hard rush often work in 2v2, cuz if you get a tc down it hurt them a lot.
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by IndyBrit »

I love 2v2s, probably my favorite games. I suck at 1v1s for some reason, and 3v3s are a little more predictable than 2v2s.

I like the good old RI-hand cav combo. Works in almost all situations, and usually the hand cav guy can switch to muskets if the cav work out wrong for some reason. The cav can always go raid if it looks like they won't be as useful in the fight.

I don't really think Abus rule longbows. I guess it depends on how many vs. how many, but I can remember many times darkening the sky with arrows until all those abus are gone. Of course, hand cav with a clean run at them are best, but still.

Actually, mass longbows hold up surprisingly well in many situations. I've seen many people roll up a cannon to longbows and come away disappointed. I think the extra range multiplies the effect of the mass - think of the back couple of rows being extra bows involved in the battle, they can add up quick. They can even knock out cavalry. There is a tipping point with cavalry though, you kind of get a feel for it. It's like if you have a certain size mass, you know you can handle up to about 6 cav and kill them with few losses, but 7 or 8 and they kill all of your LBs with just a few horses dead.
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by blayzer13 »

hmm seems like brits can go with everyone O.o lol brits ftw
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by ruminator »

I'm awful at 2v2 - too much going on screen for me I think.

Anyway, I don't think that abus are auto choice for 2v2 matchups, especially against Brits or Dutch who have RI which outrange the abus. Also Russians and Aztecs can just outmass them with cheap strelets and mace unless you have godlike micro skills and can split your abus targets up (I can't).

Mass cav is often fun - try sioux/germany for big AR/BR/uhlan harrass. Iroquois are always good for the fast age up and early FB. Double Jap = no thankyou!
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by IndyBrit »

Kaiser - what times are you on? We have to get some 2v2s in, I think we'd be a fascinating team.

If we can't beat them on the field of battle, we could pepper the other side with philosophical diatribes until they quit. :D
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""IndyBrit""]Kaiser - what times are you on? We have to get some 2v2s in, I think we'd be a fascinating team.

If we can't beat them on the field of battle, we could pepper the other side with philosophical diatribes until they quit. :D[/quote]

Haha, sounds good, Indy. These days my play time has been grossly limited, but normally I'm on in the mid-late afternoons, and sometimes in the evenings depending on my energy level (it's been dangerously low these days... maybe it's the seasonal change). But I'm always on a bunch on the weekend.

Germans/Brits FTPW (For the Protestant Win!! lol :roll: )
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by kingchrisII »

ports/dutch- skirms early goons works a treat!
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""kingchrisII""]ports/dutch- skirms early goons works a treat![/quote]

I agree, as long as there aren't too many archers.
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by kingchrisII »

i dont see what idea of archers you have kaiser, but skirms hit n run the living crap out of archers! :P

especially in attack move hit and run you can get 2/3 archers in one hit then if any cav come near goons got em, plus if there is too many the port player can easily switch to hussar lol
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by LoN_Colossus »

Yumi, Lbow = Archers
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""LoN_Colossus""]Yumi, Lbow = Archers[/quote]

...and aenna, cetan. True, you can hit and run archers, but they have 30% and skirms don't do too much base damage to non-HI. And archers can get a bunch more volleys in the time it takes a skirm to fire once. That's why I think archers beat skirms in a straight fight.
Last edited by Kaiser_von_Nuben on Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaiser on 2v2s

Post by IndyBrit »

And longbow range makes hit and run much more difficult.
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