Goals Thread

General Discussion about Age of Empires III: Definitive Edition

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Kaiser_von_Nuben
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Re: Goals Thread

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""Blackadderthe4th""]Try Russia Kaiser and go cossack/musket, puts down their rush quite handily I find. Spain's also good with rod and pike shipments.[/quote]

Does it? I think early HI against Aztec is an automatic death sentence. Those 10 or 19 maces slaughter pikes with ease. One misclick and they're all dead (mace ROF FTNW). And with 2 SK and 6 spears (doing 60 damage to cav at least; with SK's doing it with area damage) cossacks would be be obliterated without mega-micro. Don't forget there might be converted samurai, or polar bears or renegadoes there to "help out," too, plus a 600 HP warchief to take some licks in case the others can't.

That's the thing about the Aztec rush. They get SK's from AGE-UP (no Euro civs get free military from an age-up), DOUBLE RI shipment (even Russia only gets one) plus the best, cheapest anticav in the game with amazing siege potential. And if you go RI yourself, they just switch to coyotes and pwn you. It's so much tougher than the Russian rush because there are so many shipments of all kinds of units. Russia can't ship siege or anticav. Russia has no converted guardians. Russia doesn't have an explorer who awards double XP (and much quicker shipments). Worse, Russia doesn't have a firepit that gives you even more free XP for a shipment spam. I can confidently handle Russia with cav and an xbow shipment. But with Aztec, it's a total gamble whether to build cav. If he shipped spears or has the SKs, you are in trouble, because you have wasted your precious first resouces on an expensive unit, leaving you almost defenseless against the inevitable shipment waves. In my experience, the best thing is to wall up completely and mass xbows and try to match as many military shipments as possible, econ be damned. It's the only way to keep up.

Maybe an outpost would be handy for extra TC defense? Does CM work against the Aztecs?

Sorry to carp so much about the Aztecs lately... I just think they are deadly. But maybe if I can't beat em, I could join em. "Me can rush too ;) " (Only kidding)

I think it's even harder for the Brits to hold the rush, but that's a separate issue. Nature Phoenix has to fight with vils to do it.
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Re: Goals Thread

Post by Tubruk »

Fire Pits, Imba. the shipments are fine imho. its the amount they can get out. but ben your just looking at civs negatives not positives. Russia Vs Aztec is such an Imba matchup to begin with. walling wont really work, sounds good in theory but, OP Firepit boom, vils train 176% faster = 2.5 town centres :( in colonial, and as soon as action starts 21% or more attack.

but saying russia cant get extra xp from explorer, is like saying its unfair that japs explorers can build houses, spain can make wardogs, china makes disciples. its just uniqueness just how germany get 300 resources worth of cav in colonial with every shipment, and spain get their shipments faster.

euro pike got more Hp per resource, than Puma Spearmen. and its easier to go Hi/Ri as Germany or other Xbow civ than it is to go mace puma

and yeah mace chew melee Hi to pieces if not in cover, but musks fair fairly well, as they can pick off the pike without being affected by the coyotes the same way Xbow do. and Cav/Hi > Ri/Hi
Last edited by Tubruk on Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goals Thread

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---Damn Double post

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Re: Goals Thread

Post by Blackadderthe4th »

[quote=""Kaiser_von_Nuben""][quote=""Blackadderthe4th""]Try Russia Kaiser and go cossack/musket, puts down their rush quite handily I find. Spain's also good with rod and pike shipments.[/quote]

Does it? I think early HI against Aztec is an automatic death sentence. Those 10 or 19 maces slaughter pikes with ease. One misclick and they're all dead (mace ROF FTNW). And with 2 SK and 6 spears (doing 60 damage to cav at least; with SK's doing it with area damage) cossacks would be be obliterated without mega-micro. Don't forget there might be converted samurai, or polar bears or renegadoes there to "help out," too, plus a 600 HP warchief to take some licks in case the others can't.

That's the thing about the Aztec rush. They get SK's from AGE-UP (no Euro civs get free military from an age-up), DOUBLE RI shipment (even Russia only gets one) plus the best, cheapest anticav in the game with amazing siege potential. And if you go RI yourself, they just switch to coyotes and pwn you. It's so much tougher than the Russian rush because there are so many shipments of all kinds of units. Russia can't ship siege or anticav. Russia has no converted guardians. Russia doesn't have an explorer who awards double XP (and much quicker shipments). Worse, Russia doesn't have a firepit that gives you even more free XP for a shipment spam. I can confidently handle Russia with cav and an xbow shipment. But with Aztec, it's a total gamble whether to build cav. If he shipped spears or has the SKs, you are in trouble, because you have wasted your precious first resouces on an expensive unit, leaving you almost defenseless against the inevitable shipment waves. In my experience, the best thing is to wall up completely and mass xbows and try to match as many military shipments as possible, econ be damned. It's the only way to keep up.

Maybe an outpost would be handy for extra TC defense? Does CM work against the Aztecs?

Sorry to carp so much about the Aztecs lately... I just think they are deadly. But maybe if I can't beat em, I could join em. "Me can rush too ;) " (Only kidding)

I think it's even harder for the Brits to hold the rush, but that's a separate issue. Nature Phoenix has to fight with vils to do it.[/quote]

Well tbh the Spain thing was a patch ago last time I tried it but generally speaking as long as I have anti cav to keep away the coyotes I'm happy.

As for the russia you just have to beat of their absurd gaurdian and SK/pumas they have early on. Kill guardians with explorer and TC fire then use MM to take care of puma and SK. After that shipped cossacks take care of maces and musks and cossacks can kill coyotes. If you feel the need just pop out some strels or ship in 13 of them.

All I know is I played Lazy 3 times in a row his Aztecs vs my Russia and each time I took him down in the rush. Now either I'm OP which we know and I'm sure many can attest to this not being true, therefore Lazy must be rubbish. ;)

hallchr

Re: Goals Thread

Post by hallchr »

Ok Kaiser, you made me think that I should play Aztec but I have the self control to not go over to the dark side.

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Re: Goals Thread

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[quote=""hallchr""]Ok Kaiser, you made me think that I should play Aztec but I have the self control to not go over to the dark side.[/quote]

Ha ha! You're welcome to try it. I just have this bad habit of sticking to old-fashioned ways... it runs to many other games, too. For example, in COD I often play with non-automatic weapons, even though it sets me at a disadvantage with guys spraying lead everywhere with machine guns. It's more satisying to win without massive advantages, even if you get slapped down far more often. But that's just me :?

On the other hand, if you play Ports, I have a feeling you share some of my views!

Oh, I have to respond to something Tubruk said. You're right that I can't compare the Aztec warchief to the Russian explorer (or the Japanese or Spanish one for that matter). Every civ has unique advantages. But in truth, I would venture that the Aztec war chief is far better. Early game, he can get you WAY more XP than any other civ, which in turn translates into more great early game shipments. I think that is a much stronger advantage than pumping out war dogs--at cost. In AOE 3, early game strength makes or breaks a civ. There is a reason why Aztec has a high overall win %. When you can build up a huge mixed mass (with ALL elements: anti-HI, anti-cav and siege) earlier than any other civ, statistically you're much more likely to win the game. Every civ is supposed to have relatively balanced special advantages, but I would argue that Aztecs are much better than most. I like my early uhlans as much as anyone, and I realize that they represent 300 free resources, but what real good are they when faced by a 35-unit army fueled by shipments? Germans will likely only get 2 shipments by the time Aztecs get 3 or 4. You see, it's about early game. The free uhlan thing is great, but early game, Aztecs' massed XP gathering and consequent strong shipment spam is much more likely to yield a win. Additionally, let's say you lose the rush but damage your opponent. While he tries to lick his wounds, you spam WPs, mass your army and then go in again, this time with a war dance. How do you counter that?

This is becoming quite an analysis! I suppose what I'm getting at are inherent civ advantages. In other words, what are the advantages that make a civ more likely to win, if player skill levels are evenly matched? Civ win % stats are a useful tool for theorizing about this stuff.
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Re: Goals Thread

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""Blackadderthe4th""][quote=""Kaiser_von_Nuben""][quote=""Blackadderthe4th""]Try Russia Kaiser and go cossack/musket, puts down their rush quite handily I find. Spain's also good with rod and pike shipments.[/quote]

Does it? I think early HI against Aztec is an automatic death sentence. Those 10 or 19 maces slaughter pikes with ease. One misclick and they're all dead (mace ROF FTNW). And with 2 SK and 6 spears (doing 60 damage to cav at least; with SK's doing it with area damage) cossacks would be be obliterated without mega-micro. Don't forget there might be converted samurai, or polar bears or renegadoes there to "help out," too, plus a 600 HP warchief to take some licks in case the others can't.

That's the thing about the Aztec rush. They get SK's from AGE-UP (no Euro civs get free military from an age-up), DOUBLE RI shipment (even Russia only gets one) plus the best, cheapest anticav in the game with amazing siege potential. And if you go RI yourself, they just switch to coyotes and pwn you. It's so much tougher than the Russian rush because there are so many shipments of all kinds of units. Russia can't ship siege or anticav. Russia has no converted guardians. Russia doesn't have an explorer who awards double XP (and much quicker shipments). Worse, Russia doesn't have a firepit that gives you even more free XP for a shipment spam. I can confidently handle Russia with cav and an xbow shipment. But with Aztec, it's a total gamble whether to build cav. If he shipped spears or has the SKs, you are in trouble, because you have wasted your precious first resouces on an expensive unit, leaving you almost defenseless against the inevitable shipment waves. In my experience, the best thing is to wall up completely and mass xbows and try to match as many military shipments as possible, econ be damned. It's the only way to keep up.

Maybe an outpost would be handy for extra TC defense? Does CM work against the Aztecs?

Sorry to carp so much about the Aztecs lately... I just think they are deadly. But maybe if I can't beat em, I could join em. "Me can rush too ;) " (Only kidding)

I think it's even harder for the Brits to hold the rush, but that's a separate issue. Nature Phoenix has to fight with vils to do it.[/quote]

Well tbh the Spain thing was a patch ago last time I tried it but generally speaking as long as I have anti cav to keep away the coyotes I'm happy.

As for the russia you just have to beat of their absurd gaurdian and SK/pumas they have early on. Kill guardians with explorer and TC fire then use MM to take care of puma and SK. After that shipped cossacks take care of maces and musks and cossacks can kill coyotes. If you feel the need just pop out some strels or ship in 13 of them.

All I know is I played Lazy 3 times in a row his Aztecs vs my Russia and each time I took him down in the rush. Now either I'm OP which we know and I'm sure many can attest to this not being true, therefore Lazy must be rubbish. ;)[/quote]

That sounds good, Chris. Did you also have a BH by your base for extra fire support? I think the extra cav shipment is handy for Russia. I've found the cav shipment very handy for the Germans if my MM/xbows can kill the SK/pikes quick enough. It's just such a big mass that in many cases the melee units swarm in, engage the RI in hand combat, prevent them from firing effectively, and meanwhile the maces are just tossing rocks at an obscene rate. If it weren't for TC, it would be over much quicker.

Another problem is extra pikes. I generally assume that once the 6 pikes and SK's are gone, there won't be extra pikes for a while. But when extra ones show up, the cav-on-mace thing gets a little more complicated. Not just that, but all the garrison time tends to put a damper on my resource supplies.
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Re: Goals Thread

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]


Ah, my goals. Erm. Slowly climb up there without wasting too much of my time? Right, let's just focus on school ^^[/quote]

Back to colonel, not as iro colonel, but as port colonel! :D represent 8)

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