Civ counters
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Civ counters
I have been doing a lot of reading lately, mainly strats and a few guides about micro, herding, scouting and such. I have read a few comments about civ counters, and has peaked some interest, but couldn't find anymore info on it.
My question is are there direct civ counters? I'm sure at my level it's not as vital, but I'm curious what they are. I could use any advantage I can get. I would imagine that a civ such as Sioux would be a direct counter for Russia?
Maybe I'm missing the point, can someone enlighten me? :?
My question is are there direct civ counters? I'm sure at my level it's not as vital, but I'm curious what they are. I could use any advantage I can get. I would imagine that a civ such as Sioux would be a direct counter for Russia?
Maybe I'm missing the point, can someone enlighten me? :?
"Nature doesn't like Agra forts." - Sporting Lisbon
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. - Ben Franklin
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. - Ben Franklin
Re: Civ counters
Some matches are near impossible -- like Otto vs. Russia is impossible for the Otto player. The match you described is pretty even IMO, but some people will disagree.
Just to add -- take german vs ports for example. Germany is a very good civ and ports are one of the weakest, but ports tend to do very well in the matchup.
Just to add -- take german vs ports for example. Germany is a very good civ and ports are one of the weakest, but ports tend to do very well in the matchup.
- Sporting_Lisbon
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Re: Civ counters
Otto vs Russia isnt impossible for the otto player iirc o_O
And germans trash ports on land :p
Russia does better vs sioux then sioux vs russia imo
And germans trash ports on land :p
Russia does better vs sioux then sioux vs russia imo
- Kaiser_von_Nuben
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Re: Civ counters
There are some natural civ counters, I find. For example, Germany naturally counters a Russian attack with a massive uhlan spam and shipped SWs, followed by RI. The British can counter Spanish colonial with a quick musket attack, and it is possible to counter the Dutch right off the bat with a cav-heavy attack, provided he doesn't send 8 pikes.
Ideas have been percolating in my head lately about whether to go infantry or cav against certain civs. I find that ARCHERS are the deciding factor. Ranged infantry beats heavy infantry, but archers beat both because archers have 30% ranged and a higher rate of fire. That is why, in a 2v2, skirms/muskets lose to archers/muskets or archers/cav. Also, Otto can really mix you up because they have abus, which are even better than archers. Abus beats all infantry, including archers.
It is dangerous to make assumptions about what your enemy will build, of course. Just today I assumed in a 2v2 that the Otto player would build abus while his Japanese partner built ashis. Knowing that only cav stands a chance against abus, I built hussars as the Brits. My Japanese ally tried to build yumi. But the Otto built early Jannies, shipped 5 more to an outpost, overwhelmed the yumis and there I was facing Jannies with a few early hussars... not a good day :-P
Ideas have been percolating in my head lately about whether to go infantry or cav against certain civs. I find that ARCHERS are the deciding factor. Ranged infantry beats heavy infantry, but archers beat both because archers have 30% ranged and a higher rate of fire. That is why, in a 2v2, skirms/muskets lose to archers/muskets or archers/cav. Also, Otto can really mix you up because they have abus, which are even better than archers. Abus beats all infantry, including archers.
It is dangerous to make assumptions about what your enemy will build, of course. Just today I assumed in a 2v2 that the Otto player would build abus while his Japanese partner built ashis. Knowing that only cav stands a chance against abus, I built hussars as the Brits. My Japanese ally tried to build yumi. But the Otto built early Jannies, shipped 5 more to an outpost, overwhelmed the yumis and there I was facing Jannies with a few early hussars... not a good day :-P
"The German Army will not stand for it!"
-Colonel Bockner, King Solomon's Mines (1985)
-Colonel Bockner, King Solomon's Mines (1985)
Re: Civ counters
The main reason I'm asking is that I have taken the advice given here and am learning the game basically with one civ. (Iroquois) I will learn more as I progress. I've learned a lot so far and want to get more well-rounded as a player, so I'm trying to take a look at the bigger picture on a civ by civ basis, and what I need to do against each one. It's coming along OK but could use some help. (Thanks go out to severebeating for teaching me to NOT to spam tomas vs. Russia spamming strets )
I primarily play 1v1 and try to utilize the Iro advantage of a strong age 2 army, I have been doing quite well, but most of my games are over by 10-12min. The xp I get is minimal, so my HC has been slow leveling up (currently 38) I end up playing a lot of games against HC 80-100's. Which I don't mind.
I have a hard time determining if I should slow my age and go cav or go with a Tomahawk rush against certain civs. Also, given my lack of better cards and lower skill level are there certain civs where I would be at a bigger disadvantage?
I know I could level up my HC by playing CompStomps or XP farming, but I think I really need the in-game exp.
I primarily play 1v1 and try to utilize the Iro advantage of a strong age 2 army, I have been doing quite well, but most of my games are over by 10-12min. The xp I get is minimal, so my HC has been slow leveling up (currently 38) I end up playing a lot of games against HC 80-100's. Which I don't mind.
I have a hard time determining if I should slow my age and go cav or go with a Tomahawk rush against certain civs. Also, given my lack of better cards and lower skill level are there certain civs where I would be at a bigger disadvantage?
I know I could level up my HC by playing CompStomps or XP farming, but I think I really need the in-game exp.
Last edited by cleeduz on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Nature doesn't like Agra forts." - Sporting Lisbon
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. - Ben Franklin
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. - Ben Franklin
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Re: Civ counters
With iro you have a hard time vs india (cuz of the agra) and it's (allmost) impossible to win vs japan
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- Sporting_Lisbon
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Re: Civ counters
Absolutely agreed.There are some natural civ counters, I find. For example, Germany naturally counters a Russian attack with a massive uhlan spam and shipped SWs, followed by RI. The British can counter Spanish colonial with a quick musket attack, and it is possible to counter the Dutch right off the bat with a cav-heavy attack, provided he doesn't send 8 pikes.
I often age early enough to have my kanyas killing agra age up vills and ruin his eco. If you let them breath then you're done.With iro you have a hard time vs india (cuz of the agra)
Re: Civ counters
[quote=""36drew""]Some matches are near impossible -- like Otto vs. Russia is impossible for the Otto player.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.
- I__CHAOS__I
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Re: Civ counters
i find otto vs russia one of the most interesting match-ups tbh
imho:
germans > french
aztecs > russia
iro > china & dutch
sioux > otto
still depends on playstyle, maps, strats etc...
imho:
germans > french
aztecs > russia
iro > china & dutch
sioux > otto
still depends on playstyle, maps, strats etc...
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
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Re: Civ counters
[quote=""HuggyPierre""][quote=""36drew""]Some matches are near impossible -- like Otto vs. Russia is impossible for the Otto player.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.[/quote]
little rush in age 2 with musks/cossacks, harrass gold/food vills, houses, whatev, to hinder him getting to age 3, make some more musks,and i find it easier to age to 3 and go for kalmucks over manchus, since you can get the cheaper upgrades from the same card and the same resource, they can hit/run better, you save gold for other military, and with 2 falc card/musks/cossacks, pretty easy from there.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.[/quote]
little rush in age 2 with musks/cossacks, harrass gold/food vills, houses, whatev, to hinder him getting to age 3, make some more musks,and i find it easier to age to 3 and go for kalmucks over manchus, since you can get the cheaper upgrades from the same card and the same resource, they can hit/run better, you save gold for other military, and with 2 falc card/musks/cossacks, pretty easy from there.
Re: Civ counters
[quote=""Crazy""][quote=""HuggyPierre""][quote=""36drew""]Some matches are near impossible -- like Otto vs. Russia is impossible for the Otto player.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.[/quote]
little rush in age 2 with musks/cossacks, harrass gold/food vills, houses, whatev, to hinder him getting to age 3, make some more musks,and i find it easier to age to 3 and go for kalmucks over manchus, since you can get the cheaper upgrades from the same card and the same resource, they can hit/run better, you save gold for other military, and with 2 falc card/musks/cossacks, pretty easy from there.[/quote]
If i go straigt FF i find it easier to play Manchus. Due to a lack of cards you might get problems with Kalmucks and you can gather 1000 gold faster than 1100 wood (100 church and 1000 for kalmucks or am i wrong?). If i do a little harrassment it might be an interestig choice, though i'm not sure how to place the advanced church card in my deck.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.[/quote]
little rush in age 2 with musks/cossacks, harrass gold/food vills, houses, whatev, to hinder him getting to age 3, make some more musks,and i find it easier to age to 3 and go for kalmucks over manchus, since you can get the cheaper upgrades from the same card and the same resource, they can hit/run better, you save gold for other military, and with 2 falc card/musks/cossacks, pretty easy from there.[/quote]
If i go straigt FF i find it easier to play Manchus. Due to a lack of cards you might get problems with Kalmucks and you can gather 1000 gold faster than 1100 wood (100 church and 1000 for kalmucks or am i wrong?). If i do a little harrassment it might be an interestig choice, though i'm not sure how to place the advanced church card in my deck.
Re: Civ counters
[quote=""HuggyPierre""][quote=""Crazy""][quote=""HuggyPierre""][quote=""36drew""]Some matches are near impossible -- like Otto vs. Russia is impossible for the Otto player.
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.[/quote]
little rush in age 2 with musks/cossacks, harrass gold/food vills, houses, whatev, to hinder him getting to age 3, make some more musks,and i find it easier to age to 3 and go for kalmucks over manchus, since you can get the cheaper upgrades from the same card and the same resource, they can hit/run better, you save gold for other military, and with 2 falc card/musks/cossacks, pretty easy from there.[/quote]
If i go straigt FF i find it easier to play Manchus. Due to a lack of cards you might get problems with Kalmucks and you can gather 1000 gold faster than 1100 wood (100 church and 1000 for kalmucks or am i wrong?). If i do a little harrassment it might be an interestig choice, though i'm not sure how to place the advanced church card in my deck.[/quote]
I would only go straight ff if you know he is. And with manchus out, and church card in, there is no lack of cards. Yeah you can gather 1000 gold faster, but why do ottos go spahi or mamelukes first or second, its a choice they make, one would be faster to gather the resources for then the other.And kalmucks would come out faster i think because you are able to send third card before you get to age 3?
[/quote]
May i ask what the Russian player does to beat your Ottos? Just curious. I had so much trouble vs an Otto FF (Spahis and Mamelukes). Only thing worked until yet is to FF for Manchus, though i'm not sure if it works vs Spahis, Mamelukes and Abus. Maybe trying to house the Otto Player early might work as well.[/quote]
little rush in age 2 with musks/cossacks, harrass gold/food vills, houses, whatev, to hinder him getting to age 3, make some more musks,and i find it easier to age to 3 and go for kalmucks over manchus, since you can get the cheaper upgrades from the same card and the same resource, they can hit/run better, you save gold for other military, and with 2 falc card/musks/cossacks, pretty easy from there.[/quote]
If i go straigt FF i find it easier to play Manchus. Due to a lack of cards you might get problems with Kalmucks and you can gather 1000 gold faster than 1100 wood (100 church and 1000 for kalmucks or am i wrong?). If i do a little harrassment it might be an interestig choice, though i'm not sure how to place the advanced church card in my deck.[/quote]
I would only go straight ff if you know he is. And with manchus out, and church card in, there is no lack of cards. Yeah you can gather 1000 gold faster, but why do ottos go spahi or mamelukes first or second, its a choice they make, one would be faster to gather the resources for then the other.And kalmucks would come out faster i think because you are able to send third card before you get to age 3?
Re: Civ counters
I will refer you to a nice lengthy explanation as to why russia > otto. It's opinion based, but I believe it.
EDIT: And just to add, although the consensus is that some civs do better in some matchup than others, there is less consensus about who does well it what matchups.
EDIT: And just to add, although the consensus is that some civs do better in some matchup than others, there is less consensus about who does well it what matchups.
Re: Civ counters
Don't know, i just never played Kalmucks. I faced an Otto player recently who went straigt FF so did I. Aged with 5 Cossacks, got Manchus and Cannons and i bet him pretty easy (have to say he went for Cannons and Janis though). 8 Manchus survived who could easily hit and run Spahis and Mamelukes. Imo it's one of the best Anti-Cavs. But i'll consider your thoughts. Sporting told me as well.
So back to Topic...
So back to Topic...