N3O Age Of Empires and Starcraft 2 Clan

Okay, I believe whole heartedly that India are FAR lamer than Japan, there was a vote on this a while back and to my amazement there was a lot of people voting against Japan.
I want people to elaborate, on how Japan could possibly be any lamer than India, or comments on how either of them are more OP than the other.
I am a Japan player in 2v2, often, which whilst lame is a fun combo and when people ask me to change I do.
NOTE. ALL THESE COMMENTS ARE REGARDING 1v1 GAMES.
As far as I see, the problems when facing Japan are:
1) Shrine boom potential
- The shrine boom can provide hefty amounts of resource, but is mostly used for making sure the Jap player can't get housed, and you have to be pretty insanely good to reap the benefits without getting surplus resource anywhere else.
2) Ashigaru
- Ashigaru are fast musk/skirms and have decent siege, they are of course a huge problem and decent troops, but slightly costly and if you hit their eco they can't be produced easily.
3) Yumi
- Yumi are damn good archers, they do their job - and very well, and in age 3 they do become demons, but most games don't go to age 3 now, so this isn't a huge point in 1v1.
4) Unraidability
- This is true to an extent, but not really. Wood IS raidable, and so is gold. This coupled with fightning next to the Japanese players TC will completely shut them down, fact.

Whereas India (aka the bane of my existence)
1) Wonders
- Agra fort, instant easy map control for anyone, regardless of PR - instant rax + HC point and very long range, also very strong in conjunction with a 10/10.
2) Sepoy
- 2 come free with the Agra fort and considering the Indias age time even these can mess a player up, but they are strong and takes only 5 or 6 to oneshot a villager, they also have a shipment card and are one of the most powerful musket units in relation to their cost they dominate.
3) Sowar
- cheap, easy, and have a card that provides you with 4, + an infantry modifier makes them really hurt and can turn the tides of important early game fights.

Even those 3 things are enough to turn colonial into the favour of someone you might even dwarf in terms of elo/pr and it is very effective.

Add into this the fortress of them, Mahout + Howdah, Mahout will decimate any infantry without high damage vs cav, way out of proportion to what their cost is (imo) and due to the high HP it means you have to fully kill it before the damage is reduced (in contrast to fighting say 3 Hussar).
Howdah = Light Cavalry (ELEPHANTS LIGHT?!?!) and completely decimate things such as Musket Riders far out of proportion to any other Light Cav vs Light Cav.
Urumi are also incredbily strong in my opinion.

I know Japan needs nerfing, but India from all my experience are the only civ that I actually completely fear (except from Ottoman in 2v2s, abuse guns are still OP when guarded by anticav).

So has anyone changed their minds? Throw in your two cents.
I personally wont be quicksearching anymore unless I'm using an anti india civ because they are just too damn ridiculous.

I'm sorry to answer to your long post with a couple lines, but India is indeed stronger than Japan but Japan is easier to be strong with. Therefore, Japan is lamer :p

Japan are less brittle I think - a failed agra 10/10 rush effectively dooms you.

Both of these civs have v.good but expensive infantry. While Japan can boom with shrine to afford these, India does not quite have the same econ. I find Japan can mass enough to fight off say a European dual rax charge far better than India can.

Agra fort looks worse than it is - you can just ignore it when attacking thier base.

Grunt plays japan, therefor Japan > India.
Overall India might be slightly better, but def not easier or more lame.

I think you forget many other OP (or very strong) japanese points.
Consulate in age I
Japanese isolation + those clubbin' savages
Wonders: The shrine is too good and the other options are still great
Teleport explorers that can build shrines
Double shipments !!! 10 ashi's / yumi's is just so good, beats back any rush. Taking down their rax is just not enough.
Easy water eco by shipping loads of fishing boats
One-click-eco-fix: shrines produce whatever you're short of... too easy imho

my 2 cent

I fear India more than Japan.

I find their army very difficult to micro against and win.

Can we also take into account the power level I'm playing at, I honestly believe around the PR30 mark people generally understand how to fully take advantage of India's lamer points, the fortress, the incredibly Karni Mata economy and it gives you damn good resource for aging up.
In response to Chaos -
Japanese explorers?
I massed 20 LB by the time an India player had 15 Sepoy, and set about out-microing him, suddenly two elephant explorers run in and stop on my longbows rendering at least 6 or 7 of them useless forcing them into melee mode, and do you know how many longbow shots it takes to down an explorer? I don't feel I should of had to make my army 5 weaker by building pikes just to counter his explorers.
Shrines as an option to give you extra resource (other than wood for more shrines) only works significantly if you are already late into the game, or aged with the shrine wonder - which leaves you very open to a rush compared to the Torii Gates.

i think there both just as bad as eachother but in different ways:

-india powerful, flexible units and a larger choice e.g. zambruks in age 2

-japan strong eco, and when all upgrade cards, consulate and daimyo come into effect their units are far too beasty imo

Cammel, 20 lbs basically one-shot kill an elephant, I doubt that's the issue, don't go stand in the open though with those, stay between manors etc, have a few pikes or musks wont hurt eather, you'll need em anyway vs the cammels

most japanese recs I've seen (PR36+ and expert) all use the shrine wonder, it's just too good. Combined with the heavenly Kami card (which they all use as well) makes the srines insane.

India's true power is it's excellent units that all are good at countering what they should counter. In the hands of a strong player with good micro it's hard to stop. To me, India is more about skills than it is lame.
I really dont see why you say India is FAR lamer than Japan :/

I agree that both are lame, but I have to side with Sporting's conclusion that it is "easier to be lame" with Japan. I have never played Japan in a competitive game. But I decided to play an unrated 1v1 with my mentor the other day with Japan. Imitating what I saw in expert recs, I claimed several herds in discovery, built Toshugu with 8 animals and basically just spammed ashigaru and some nagis. Granted, I wasn't pressured early, but by the 9 minute mark I had an army (upgraded with cards and consulate) that could win battles simply by hitting attack-move. That is lamerism, pure and simple. If you don't immediately pressure Japan, you will lose.

Ashi are just so deadly once you get a decent mass of them. It's interesting that you called them "musket/skirms;" that's like calling something both black and white at the same time. Yet that's the problem with this unit: It is too good against everything it faces. I recently watched a 3v3 with you, Choco and Tatl and saw massed ashis defeating large numbers of yumis. That is not supposed to happen! The Japanese player essentially defeated all three of you single-handed simply because ashis are not balanced. No other civ could have managed that.

India, on the other hand, requires a bit more tact than Japan. You need a little more finesse than simply massing muskets. That said, their combined arms force is really tough to crack: Sowars, redcoats, gurkhas and the meatshield-explorers make for a nasty awakening in any battle... which usually takes place under fire from the Agra. Elephants are a pain, too, but I think they are too costly to handle really large, balanced enemy armies. Thankfully, it takes a while for an Indian player to get the key balance he needs for a good army. Japan, on the other hand, can just hit attack-move and win. That makes them lamer, in my view.

Up to Colonel Japan is stronger than India (edited ). I still don't know what to do vs Japan with a lot of civs while against India I can still ''try'' to beat them soon enough before their super OP army with the auto-eco of extra vills by cards owns you.

[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]Up to Colonel Japan is stronger than Japan. [/quote]

Wow Japan is so OP its even OP against other Japan players! Thats incredible!

india can prove to be much much lamer than japan at higher PR between the ever apparent entire counter system in age 2 to the ridiculous mass of units that appear &are upgraded by the british cons.

not to mention that india can boom really, really hard

Argh, India, I mean :p rofl