possible 1.02

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Sporting_Lisbon
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

skirms in COLONIAL, they cost less,
They cost more, wood gathers slower. -1 or 2 atk yeah, would do tho.
Fishing boats do NOT need yet another boost. Your "fix" would also make east india men far better than schooners.
East india men and schooners would be the same, you misread. When was the last time iro, sioux, german or french went sea? With schooners/india men fishing boats would cost 52.5 wood, more than old 40w.
Ranged inf do NOT need a boost vs. cav. If he sends a cav shipment, just tear him apart with your pikes, and if you get your pikes killed your army deserves to die anyway. You shouldn't undo the counter system cause you don't accommodate for it.
Yes, but in the middle of the battle if you only have a few pikes it's imbalanced that a few cav chew through RI. Who said I don't accommodate for it? ^^ Abusing is the key, I'm on a 8 win streak with this boosted iro rush.
Your zamburak edit would make them stronger than they are now, and they're the last unit that needs a boost. Boost keshiks instead.
They lost 15 atk vs cav but got 25 hp. Zams die too fast when cav reaches them but they pwn cav hard when cav doesn't reach them, that's not right. They'd be more standard this way.
Your Port edit would only make the Port econ better, when it's their military that needs fixing.
Sorry but Port flexibility must be fixed, ports atm are a turtle-to-fortress-or-die civ. Bringing musk/caça improve cards to colo and fortress (I actually like those fortress card slots) wouldn't make you rush jap would it? Other boosts could be given tho. Don't forget I boosted fortress age up time in the overall changes.

Thanks for the analysis btw ;)

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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Ok, I did misread your statement on the schooners edit, but that'd still make them stronger than before, when if anything they need a nerf. Their base cost was cut down bigtime (why?) and schooners now also provides a dock while making them cost a mere 12.5 wood more. It's just more reason to fish boom, even if you don't use schooners.

Yumi do cost less than skirms. Don't merely take into account gathering rates. Take into account how available resources are too. Gold mines hold a mere 2000 gold and the next one is often half the map away. Wood, on the other hand, is nearly unraidable and is by FAR the most abundant resource. Also, don't forget that you gather wood anyway. Gold, on the other hand, adds a third resource to manage, making it substantially more difficult. Tack on the fact that yumi cost less wood than skirms cost gold, and you find that skirms cost substantially more, beyond the 10 base resource difference.

A few cav do chew up a few LI, but a few pikes should easily be able to take down a 3 hussar shipment, even if you do let them die to his infantry (you should keep pikes behind your army to keep them alive). If you have enough LI, they shred a few cav anyway.

Also, how does a boost to the Port econ diversify the civ? If anything, boosting their colonial army would diversify them instead.
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Soccerman771 »

How would you boost the Port Colonial Army? Casa's standard in age 2? If you boost any of their army in Age II, don't you boost all the army's with the same units?
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Navarone_Guy »

I mean giving them the upgrade shipments in age 2 and possibly giving them more or better age 2 military or upgrade shipments.
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by ruminator »

Give ports a 3 hussar card in age 2.

I agree that increased damage/hp for infantry should be a age 3 card, it is for everyone else and the dragoon combat card is age 3 and also affects hussars.
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Their base cost was cut down bigtime (why?)
Because civs without schooners should be able to go sea too.


Lol you say port is OP on water because they have a great eco. In land they are UP because they don't have such an eco. Boosting their eco makes them better, then. You overrate the influence of inf upgrades in colo.
but that'd still make them stronger than before, when if anything they need a nerf.
Making it -30% plus a dock is a nerf. India's sea boom sucks because 70w boats instead of 100w is nothing. After all they'd cost 52.5w instead of 40w, that's a nerf as well.

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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Palehorse »

Since India peons cost wood, make their boats cost food :-P
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

52.5 is too cheap, make it 65 or so
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Cyclohexane »

I like the idea of decreasing the time it takes to get to Fortress, but what about decreasing the cost to age up instead. Perhaps Spain can be boosted by a decrease in cost to Age to Fortress. Say 1000 food and 600 gold (basically 1 free unit upgrade). This should be tested, but why is it written all civs should age at the same cost? Also, why not have two 4 Lancer shipments. Why did they change it from 5/4 to 4/3? A 4/4 shipment seems much more fair. Even their FF could be weakened by removing the 2 falconet shipment. Not all civs have this, it seems they really changed the way this civ was played just to keep this shipment and their fast shipment rate. Why not just remove the problem and give them a different age 3 merc to make up for it or just slow their shipment rate again. The 1 falconet shipment can stay the same. The problem was 2 falconets surrounded by rods with lancers running around killing anything coming close to the rods. Rods + Lancers are much easier to beat without the falconets!

For Ports, how about a free barracks in Colonial. You really do not need 2 TC in Colonial anyway unless you are boat booming. So the option of TC versus free barracks in Age 2 would allow for diversity without making them OP. I agree their infantry upgrades do not need to be all in Age 4. Have them Age 2 and 3 like Nav suggested. Their cassas are basically skirms anyway so why not? Their organ guns are to weak and can never be fixed do to their burst fire and stop firing once the target dies. They never deal out their true damage potential. Why not treat them like falconets, the animation can stay the same, but treat the damage like a falconet (all in 1 volley). Changing their cards could add more diversity as well (House of Bracanna granting TP wagon and move to Age 2, Church card Beisto tech cost 1000 wood with no units shipped, etc.). Then you have to nerf their Age 4 shipments to prevent them from surviving to the point of invincibility (50 range mortars with 20 range dragoons).

Britain just needs crossbows in Colonial. Make the option to create longbows or crossbows. Longbows in colonial just can’t compete with hit and run tactics. Sure they are great in mass, but it’s just not feasible in Age 2 combat.

For Otto, why not move the Abus gun to the barracks and treat it more like a light infantry unit. This would prevent the need for so much wood in Age 2 and allow a more diverse army upfront. Late game would stay the same.

For Dutch, decrease their bank HP by half and give them back their starting villager and starting crates. An 8 pike shipment should be able to destroy a bank in a reasonable time frame if you have killed their army. The 1 extra starting villager and pre-patch crates will ensure they have an army. If you are a better player, you can take em out, and the bank down before they can recover.

I’ve never really played India, so anything I suggest here would require extensive testing. Perhaps removing the +1 villager bonus on all military shipments. Another option would be to move their Gurkas to Age 3 but that opens them up to HI rushes. Why do they have such a diverse army in all the Ages?

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[quote=""djdan""]The only thing I can think of is the Kami Heaven card for Japan that boosts the trickle when you have 20 shrines that can produce a possible 0.73 food each thats just OP lol[/quote]

That is not how it works at all. This card only boosts the base rate by 50% (from 0.1 to 0.15 on gold - food slightly different). Even with 20 shrines, it is only about a 2-3 villager equivalent increase (very crappy card).

Perhaps you thinking of the Tempo Reforms Technology. That increases rate of all shrines on gold by 300% (very nice). This is about a 10 villager boost but is in Age 4.

The Wonder Shrine grants all shrines 133% and a small trickle. With everything together and no animals on shrines, it is about equivalent to 22.5 villagers on gold (different for other resources, just showing 1 example for simplicity) with the base gold collection rate. If you compare to upgraded mining, this value goes down.

Considering they only have 75 villagers, adding approximately 20-25 more is fair. Now when you consider they can't be raided, that is a different story...

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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Navarone_Guy »

Your suggestions would completely change the game around, Cyclo, but I like them. If you're going to put abus in the rax, however, you're going to need to nerf them or else they'll become OP. The only reason they aren't now is the horrendous cost of building both a rax and a foundry.

I'm not sure I like the idea of adding a rax for Ports instead of a TC. The TCs do make the civ too defensive, boring, and unbalanced, but a rax would just make them UP. Boosting them in other areas would make it fine, though.
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Re: possible 1.02

Post by TheRam »

[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]
Yumi do cost less than skirms. Don't merely take into account gathering rates. Take into account how available resources are too. Gold mines hold a mere 2000 gold and the next one is often half the map away. Wood, on the other hand, is nearly unraidable and is by FAR the most abundant resource. Also, don't forget that you gather wood anyway. Gold, on the other hand, adds a third resource to manage, making it substantially more difficult. [/quote]

I think you overstate the difficulty of managing 3 resources, it's not that hard.
It's somewhat more difficult at the start, because you can't tweak as easily, ratio wise. But if we're considering only rush games then you're never really going to run out of coin that fast, and there's usually 2 mines in close proximity to your base.
Also, once you've killed your initial batch of trees (which is about what... 1200->3000 net wood) you're often just as raidable - I think it's map dependant, consider maps with 5k gold next to your TC.
[quote=""Soccerman771""]
How would you boost the Port Colonial Army? Casa's standard in age 2? If you boost any of their army in Age II, don't you boost all the army's with the same units?[/quote]
Would be insanely OP. Think about walling a few cassas in vs infantry rushes, they outrange and overpower prettymuch anything that can be sent at you in colonial, aside from cav.
[quote=""Cyclohexane""]Britain just needs crossbows in Colonial. Make the option to create longbows or crossbows. Longbows in colonial just can’t compete with hit and run tactics. Sure they are great in mass, but it’s just not feasible in Age 2 combat.[/quote]
That would ruin their diversity, and considering Brits are actually used by alot of the highest players people just need to either play them more and publicise their strats, or resign to the fact they're a high skilled but highly rewarding civ.
Overall I think your tweaks are a bit too extreme, abus in the barracks would make Ottoman both far more accessible to noobs, and thus help them dominate the lower PR ratings of TAD and lead to some OP rushes (easily accessible Jan (Melee) and Abus and the extra wood for another trade post).

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Re: possible 1.02

Post by blayzer13 »

not a lot of people post brit recs, i try to find them but have a really hard time

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Re: possible 1.02

Post by Tatltael »

[quote=""Cyclohexane""]

[quote=""djdan""]The only thing I can think of is the Kami Heaven card for Japan that boosts the trickle when you have 20 shrines that can produce a possible 0.73 food each thats just OP lol[/quote]

That is not how it works at all. This card only boosts the base rate by 50% (from 0.1 to 0.15 on gold - food slightly different). Even with 20 shrines, it is only about a 2-3 villager equivalent increase (very crappy card).

Perhaps you thinking of the Tempo Reforms Technology. That increases rate of all shrines on gold by 300% (very nice). This is about a 10 villager boost but is in Age 4.

The Wonder Shrine grants all shrines 133% and a small trickle. With everything together and no animals on shrines, it is about equivalent to 22.5 villagers on gold (different for other resources, just showing 1 example for simplicity) with the base gold collection rate. If you compare to upgraded mining, this value goes down.

Considering they only have 75 villagers, adding approximately 20-25 more is fair. Now when you consider they can't be raided, that is a different story...

Check out my Guide I just updated, all the details are there.[/quote]

im not much of a japan player but heavenly kami also reduces wood cost for shrine, and in conjunction with portuguese consulate shrines cost 75 wood, not to mention age2 wonder costs 680 wood with port. consulate.

correct me if im wrong, but 1.5 x .1 = .15 right? .15 x 2.33 = about .35 i think. compare that to .1 x 2.33 = .23

50% adds alot i think, assuming i did that math right

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