Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

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Kaiser_von_Nuben
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Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

This is quite a random topic, but I think it's worth mentioning. You can tell just from playing our clanners that Dutch are quite popular on this patch. I have found from my own experience that the extra 100 wood crate makes the inevitable bank boom significantly easier than it was before. But the Dutch have weaknesses, especially early game before they get 3-4 banks up.

I have found that you can really mess up a Dutch player with raids. Generally, he won't send vils in Age 2, so for the first few mins in colonial he will still have less than 20 vils. If he loses a couple, it really hurts. To that end, I have found that the 8 pike card is a very nice touch for mid-colonial, post-FB battle situations. It gives you enough pikes to scare or beat any colonial cav raid. I think it is a great home defense card in team games. As a raider myself, I know I can usually take out a small batch of pikes without too much worry. But 8 pikes will generally cause too much damage for an attack to be worth it.

In a team game, it will depend on the circumstances whether to send 8 pikes. If you don't foresee too much nasty raiding (ie, no Sioux, French or Germans on the other team), you likely won't need it. But if raiding might be an issue, it is a great insurance policy. In most cases, I send bank wagon as my first colonial card, followed by 700 wood. Depending on the situation, you could send 8 pikes for home defense, or 600 more wood if you feel safe. After that, send in the infantry boost cards (these rank among my favorite cards in the game...pimped fast halbs and skirms can just pwn in fortress).

I didn't play much Dutch 1v1, but I found the 8 pike card very helpful there, too. If I wanted to semi-FF against a raiding civ, 8 pikes was a must, along with an early rax and skirms. A lot of people use hussars early game to do the same thing, but skirm/pike is a great defense force, too. The only issue is that if you lose the pikes, you are in trouble. And against archer attacks, pike/skirm is never a good idea.

Everyone loves hussars, but I never feel at home using them with the Dutch. I want food for more banks, not horses. 8) It seems whenever I do Dutch hussars, I'm stuck on 2 banks for much too long for my liking.
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by ruminator »

It's a must have card for your deck, but not an automatic playing choice. I would play 700 wood, bank wagon and possibly even 4 settlers before this unless they were knocking on my front door ...

The key is that everyone knows the Dutch have an 8 pike card, so it often frightens off any cav raid, a bit like Nuclear weapons during the Cold War ...
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by Aaryn_GenD »

dutch are popualr in this patch because they are the op civ, even though not having too much of a big advance comparing to the other civs.

the 8 pike card is indeed very important, since a dutch player mostly affords skirms/huss in a 1v1 or even 5huss semi-ff or defensive skirmsishers, saving the wood he would need to train the pikes for his banks

but these things are nothing new, it has been like that for years, i'm surprised you mention that now kaiser ;D

a civ gets only focused om when some new changes are made and people start taking a closer look at the civ.

kinda like iro on es patch which was barely used since it stood in the shadows of japan and india :-)
(that said, ruyters need a slight food cost increase and get rid off the +100 starting wood they don't need it, end rant)^^
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

dutch are a tricky civ to balance, the +100 wood was good, but maybe the bank rate should be lowered a bit, but auto-upgrade each age.
example:
colo bank = -15% of actual gathering rate
fortress = normal rate
indu = + 15%
imp = +15%
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by TwentyLemon »

The changing bank gather rate would be even more complex to balance. Playtesting would take ages. Better the dutch have a strong early game, and a weak endgame for have too few vils.
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""]dutch are popualr in this patch because they are the op civ, even though not having too much of a big advance comparing to the other civs.

the 8 pike card is indeed very important, since a dutch player mostly affords skirms/huss in a 1v1 or even 5huss semi-ff or defensive skirmsishers, saving the wood he would need to train the pikes for his banks

but these things are nothing new, it has been like that for years, i'm surprised you mention that now kaiser ;D

a civ gets only focused om when some new changes are made and people start taking a closer look at the civ.

kinda like iro on es patch which was barely used since it stood in the shadows of japan and india :-)
(that said, ruyters need a slight food cost increase and get rid off the +100 starting wood they don't need it, end rant)^^[/quote]

No, it's not new... just new to me! Dutch is my #3 civ and I am really lost using them in 1v1. I just like having a ready-made "anti-raid" card in my deck.
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by 36drew »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]dutch are a tricky civ to balance, the +100 wood was good, but maybe the bank rate should be lowered a bit, but auto-upgrade each age.
example:
colo bank = -15% of actual gathering rate
fortress = normal rate
indu = + 15%
imp = +15%[/quote]

Hmm. Is there anything like this currently in place?
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by Aaryn_GenD »

[quote=""36drew""][quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]dutch are a tricky civ to balance, the +100 wood was good, but maybe the bank rate should be lowered a bit, but auto-upgrade each age.
example:
colo bank = -15% of actual gathering rate
fortress = normal rate
indu = + 15%
imp = +15%[/quote]

Hmm. Is there anything like this currently in place?[/quote]

don't think so, what i said was posted by _h2o, the ruyter spam has to get toned down a bit and remove the 100wood^^
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

so nerf them more than before the fan patch? hmm, they were kinda weak afaik.
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by deadhanddan »

only problem i see with dutch is the ruyter , given the ruyter r substantially weaker then a dragoon stats wise in comparison , but that fact that the dutch can mass them . a goon has 240 hp - 26 attack - 20% resist vs. ruyter 170 hp - 16 attack - 10% resist , so in a 1v1 the goon looks like the better unit - but the fact that dutch can spam them so absurdly for 1 pop space is the issue . looking at the stats the ruyter looks really weak but factor in that the dutch will have a goon to ruyter ratio of 1-2 or even 1-3 for same amount of pop space is what makes ruyter better. for nearly equal cost and even pop space a goon has the 240hp 26 attack 20 resist while the ruyter has 340 hp 32 attack 20 resist ( for same amount of pop space and nearly equal cost)
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by 36drew »

^ Don't forget about 150 pop army.
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

You all have brought up serious issues with the Dutch. Everyone foresaw this stuff before the fan patch. I think it was Dan who said that you ALWAYS need to watch out when changing the Dutch, since even a slight boost can result in utter OPness. I think that's what happened here.

In the last patch, the Dutch were manageable. No one played them 1v1 because they weren't "OP," but they were still great in team. Now, they are awesome in team and pretty damn OP in 1v1. It's amazing what an extra 100 wood can do in bank-builders' hands!

We need to watch out with the nerf stick, though. If we nerf them worse than they were in the last patch, I wonder if anyone would ever use them 1v1.

Having said all this, we all don't want TWC Dutch. Talk about lame.
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Re: Dutch 8 Pike Card - I Love it !

Post by Aaryn_GenD »

[quote=""Kaiser_von_Nuben""]
In the last patch, the Dutch were manageable. No one played them 1v1 because they weren't "OP," but they were still great in team. Now, they are awesome in team and pretty damn OP in 1v1. It's amazing what an extra 100 wood can do in bank-builders' hands!.[/quote]

i think there is also another reason other than the huge boost of +100w and better banks which make dutch so good.. it's the dragoon change!!!!

from 30% Ranged resistence to 20% rr, and the x0.8multiplier cav has vs goons, they do better vs cav now and less vs everything else(skirms/ruyter)

this is all good, but ruyters with their 10% rr didn't receive that nerf, they only got the boost in form of taking less dmg from cav, doing well vs goons themselves(dan pointed that out nicely) and with their banks and all they can easily spam ruyter, skirms and falcs/culvs
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