SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Talk about Strategies and share your Replays here

Moderators: Global Moderator, Age Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
IndyBrit
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:53 am
Location: Indianapolis

SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by IndyBrit »

SevereBeating is a like a dangerous chess player, making super aggressive attacks that no one really knows what's going to happen. :D

Bayou - strange map both of us are looking under rocks for bugs or something to eat. Brit boom under some duress, lots of villie wars. Beating just runs out of steam late.

Plains - Beating is guilty of respecting our PR difference too much. Some very successful raiding leaves me with 7 villies. I try raiding back, but I think he let me back into this one.

GGs - lively battles even if we aren't experts.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
36drew
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2713
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:22 am

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by 36drew »

I downloaded the great plains game but can't watch it.

EDIT: Got it to work. Here are some pointers.

1. Your first batch of villagers started at 20 seconds -- way too late -- should be 11-13 for russia. Thats 7-9 seconds faster you can hit age II.
2. You neglected to grab the scout treasure at 1:10 --possibly the most awesome treasure in the game (seriously).
3. Your way point needs to be set on hunts; you had villagers running nowhere.
4. Wood trickle = great first card.
5. Never 17 vill age up.... ever -- in 1.01 it's never a good idea in any situation 1v1 or team or if you are facing a slow civ. Never do it again. Always 14 villagers even if your TC idle's a few seconds. If you 14 + wood trickle you hit colonial with a 16.5 villager eco at 4:30 which is as good as most civs (germany = 17, brit = 16, spain = 16, etc).
6. Okay, he is in age 2 and you haven't even hit the age up button? As soon as you have 800 food you need to click it -- you can't wait a single sencond longer. MASH on your damn mouse and beat it to death. I never wanna see such a horrible age up time again.
7. Eco theroy is a 5-6-7ish card -- NEVER YOUR SECOND CARD EVER.
8. Blockhouse should be placed to secure hunts.
9. You don't need a second blockhouse like you made when you hit age ii -- it has zero purpose.
10. 400 wood normally should go to your tc -- its safer to gather in case of rush.
11. Good early raid.
12. PLease constantly train vills, especailly when you have masses of extra resourece. T + V should be your habit.
13. Nice villager pinch in the corner.
14. More idle TC time -- not good.
15. Horrible villager balance at 12 minutes you have:
-- 1 on food
-- 6 on wood
-- 10 on gold
And 6 idle. For russia you should always have 70-80% of your villagers on food, and maybe even more like 90% in early colonial.
16. Wall serves NO purpose -- secured no hunts.
17. Cav on stretley is good use of coutner system.
18. You reseearch stagecoach and don't put to res? LOL.
19. Still not making villager what the... (seriously this alone would raise your pr 3-4, not joking)
20. Obviously micro misaktes like leaving cannons completely open.
21. You make a whole 1 group of villagers!

You lost the game because you did not make villagers period. And for that you definetly deserved the loss 100%.
User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""36drew""]18. You reseearch stagecoach and don't put to res? LOL.
[/quote]
what if he wanted more XP for shipments?
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle
User avatar
Soccerman771
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Sachse, Texas (near Dallas)
Contact:

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by Soccerman771 »

[quote=""36drew""]
5. Never 17 vill age up.... ever -- in 1.01 it's never a good idea in any situation 1v1 or team or if you are facing a slow civ. Never do it again. Always 14 villagers even if your TC idle's a few seconds. If you 14 + wood trickle you hit colonial with a 16.5 villager eco at 4:30 which is as good as most civs (germany = 17, brit = 16, spain = 16, etc).
[/quote]

I almost always age up w/17 against Brits and have much better eco and spammability. I've also rarely lost a game 1v1 against Brits w/Russia at my level. The only exception is Deccan and Carolina where 14 is great +BH early in age I. Ship 5 cossacks as I hit II, they pop out right near their TC or 2nd hunt and everyone goes in the TC and they are choked 4 food, 60% of time = gg right there.
jtackel@hotmail.com

"Do you know how difficult it is to micro Napalm?" - Lazy_Tuga

"This isn't going to work. I've picked a water deck and there isn't even a pond on this map." - Blackadderthe4th
User avatar
36drew
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2713
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:22 am

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by 36drew »

Always 14 vill age up soccerman, always... please do not 17 vil age up ever. You can have 5 cossacks pop out right at a TC when doing a 14 villager age up too. It's one of the easiest BO's around.

Chaos -- there is something to be said for that, but when you've already sent 6 cards and all you have left in colonial is resource crate cards to send, you want those TP's one resources.
User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

I do think there are several situations where aging with 17 is >>> than 14 as russia.
Depending on:
- the civ you are facing: if you know they won't rush you
- your starting crates: no extra 100 food
- random treasures: no food treasures found
- map: long maps or maps where it's easy to defend
- your strat: fishbooming or FF/FI, first card is not always wood trickle
- team games: where it's more about solid eco + spam instead of fast rushing at the cost of your eco

If a combination of the above occure, it's often good to go with 17 vils imho, as having an idle TC for 25 sec is plain stupid and the difference in eco is huge (3 extra vils is a lot!)

If you wanna do the cookie-rush then yeah, age up with 14 vils like everybody else, as speed will cover your eco sacrifice
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle
User avatar
36drew
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2713
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:22 am

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by 36drew »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]I do think there are several situations where aging with 17 is >>> than 14 as russia.
Depending on:
- the civ you are facing: if you know they won't rush you
- your starting crates: no extra 100 food
- random treasures: no food treasures found
- map: long maps or maps where it's easy to defend
- your strat: fishbooming or FF/FI, first card is not always wood trickle
- team games: where it's more about solid eco + spam instead of fast rushing at the cost of your eco

If a combination of the above occure, it's often good to go with 17 vils imho, as having an idle TC for 25 sec is plain stupid and the difference in eco is huge (3 extra vils is a lot!)

If you wanna do the cookie-rush then yeah, age up with 14 vils like everybody else, as speed will cover your eco sacrifice[/quote]

A. Your TC should not be idle for 25 seconds if you are doings things correctly.
B. At higher levels any other than wood trickle is a rarity as a first card. Sea booming for high players almost always means schooners is about a fifth card.
C. In team games if you are late with your first batch, it's big trouble normally.
D. In nearly every single expert replay i've seen of russia (even those against quote 'non-rushing civs' the russian player goes for a 14 villager age up).
E. If you are FF-ing or FI-ing as russia, I would really recommend against this. In 1.01 very few IF ANY civs can FF (maybe semi-ff is okay, not straight FF and certainly not straight FI) -- and of all the civs russia is one the worst ones to do this.

The bottom line is this; i've made recommendations to improve his gameplay -- while FF/FI-ing and 17 villager age ups might be dandy and all, they are very unlikely to improve your gameplay. Out.
User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

[quote=""36drew""]A. Your TC should not be idle for 25 seconds if you are doings things correctly.[/quote]
as if we all play perfectly and always find instantly our starting hunt, micro 1 vil on each crate and hunts never runs the wrong way etc... many things can go wrong, we're no experts

[quote=""36drew""]B. At higher levels any other than wood trickle is a rarity as a first card. Sea booming for high players almost always means schooners is about a fifth card.[/quote]
what we mostly see at higher level is the same rush over and over and over, and that includes 14 vils + wood trickle, true. Does that make you a better player? no.
I've seen several use schooner as first card, and lately I saw 2 or 3 recs with ATP as first card.

[quote=""36drew""]C. In team games if you are late with your first batch, it's big trouble normally.[/quote]
Huh? 25 seconds of difference on huge maps rarely matter. If you watch those top clans play in 3v3, they spend the first 10 min massing units and not suicide rushing.

[quote=""36drew""]D. In nearly every single expert replay i've seen of russia (even those against quote 'non-rushing civs' the russian player goes for a 14 villager age up).[/quote]
I've never seen an expert use the fast age up as iroquois, does that mean Sporting's strat is bad? I believe that the game is played differently on each level, without the same skills, it's sometimes not useful to copy their strats

[quote=""36drew""]E. If you are FF-ing or FI-ing as russia, I would really recommend against this. In 1.01 very few IF ANY civs can FF (maybe semi-ff is okay, not straight FF and certainly not straight FI) -- and of all the civs russia is one the worst ones to do this.[/quote] True, still there are maps like Texas and araucania where FF is rather common.
Suvorov FF is also used.

[quote=""36drew""]The bottom line is this; i've made recommendations to improve his gameplay -- while FF/FI-ing and 17 villager age ups might be dandy and all, they are very unlikely to improve your gameplay. Out.[/quote] Why would it not improve his gameplay? I bet it's gonna done more good than doing the same 1 strat over and over again.
You make it sound as if aging with 17 vils = GG
I'd say: aim for 14, but if you see you'll have too much idle TC time, go with 17 and enjoy the better eco, my 2 yuan :D
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle
User avatar
36drew
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2713
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:22 am

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by 36drew »

Well this will be the last I add to the topic. My thoughts are in bold.

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""][quote=""36drew""]A. Your TC should not be idle for 25 seconds if you are doings things correctly.[/quote]
as if we all play perfectly and always find instantly our starting hunt, micro 1 vil on each crate and hunts never runs the wrong way etc... many things can go wrong, we're no experts

The starting of the game need not be complicated. You don't 'have to individually micro your villagers either. 2 on one crate, 2 on another, 1 on the last. It's really basic. Shooting your first herd towards your TC is also pretty straightforward stuff. You don't need to be uber fast or anything to accomplish this. Of course things can go wrong -- things can go wrong with a 17 villager age up too -- the mistakes will affect outcomes in both scenarios.

[quote=""36drew""]B. At higher levels any other than wood trickle is a rarity as a first card. Sea booming for high players almost always means schooners is about a fifth card.[/quote]
what we mostly see at higher level is the same rush over and over and over, and that includes 14 vils + wood trickle, true. Does that make you a better player? no.
I've seen several use schooner as first card, and lately I saw 2 or 3 recs with ATP as first card.

Yes choosing a smart first card makes you a better player relative to PR and Elorating, and in my humble opinion generally speaking it does. Factors other than speed of mouse movement, keystrokes, scouting, adaptation, micro, and micro matter. Card choice is one of them, and there is a reason that better players tend to use smarter first card. Point: if someone who did everything nicely -> villagers balanced on resources, perfect micro, etc played economic theory as a first card you would say that someone is smarter to play wood trickle, maybe schooners, maybe ATP (pretty situational though for the last two IMO and this is a general comment). Furthermore, yes perfecting a strategy that will improve your rank does make you a better player. For example, a guy might be able to wing a pike or grenadier rush and beat some players that are 'better' than them, but this does not make them better players unless this becomes the strategy to perfect.

Having said all of that, most people play the game for reasons other than competition -- I know that having 3 bombards appear out of nowhere in the line of stretlets gives me more satisfaction than beating a colonel -- even if I loose the game.


[quote=""36drew""]C. In team games if you are late with your first batch, it's big trouble normally.[/quote]
Huh? 25 seconds of difference on huge maps rarely matter. If you watch those top clans play in 3v3, they spend the first 10 min massing units and not suicide rushing.

25 seconds matters whether your 'suicide' rushing as you put it or not. You can have your first colonial shipment much earlier. I would in fact argue that time matters even more in team games, but that's a whole other story.

[quote=""36drew""]D. In nearly every single expert replay i've seen of russia (even those against quote 'non-rushing civs' the russian player goes for a 14 villager age up).[/quote]
I've never seen an expert use the fast age up as iroquois, does that mean Sporting's strat is bad? I believe that the game is played differently on each level, without the same skills, it's sometimes not useful to copy their strats

I don't feel like going down this road, but I think we can both agree that there are different ways to go from point a to point b.

[quote=""36drew""]E. If you are FF-ing or FI-ing as russia, I would really recommend against this. In 1.01 very few IF ANY civs can FF (maybe semi-ff is okay, not straight FF and certainly not straight FI) -- and of all the civs russia is one the worst ones to do this.[/quote] True, still there are maps like Texas and araucania where FF is rather common.
Suvorov FF is also used.

Sure.^^ I even have a texas deck for when I play on that map. Just once again is situational, and even then I still go for 14 villagers and up.

[quote=""36drew""]The bottom line is this; i've made recommendations to improve his gameplay -- while FF/FI-ing and 17 villager age ups might be dandy and all, they are very unlikely to improve your gameplay. Out.[/quote] Why would it not improve his gameplay? I bet it's gonna done more good than doing the same 1 strat over and over again.
You make it sound as if aging with 17 vils = GG
I'd say: aim for 14, but if you see you'll have too much idle TC time, go with 17 and enjoy the better eco, my 2 yuan :D

Picking one strat and mastering it's basics has helped me more than I can ever imagine in terms of gameplay. When I first signed up I read about a build order and went from seargent to 2nd leit in a matter of a couple days. Then I realized I hit roadblocks because I stuck to the build religuously and made no adaptation (you can make a good point about ATP and schooners here and I would accept that open heartedly -- like ATP on patagonia -- situation specific adaptation where it might be a better choice over wood trickle, maybe schooners too with blockhouse protection + 2cara). Anyway, I think if you actually watched the game that you would be really frustrated with how the outcome ended up. A few BASIC principles like constant villagers production (or even that alone) would have one the game.

[/quote]
User avatar
Sporting_Lisbon
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 5276
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:18 pm
Location: Lisboa

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

I've never seen an expert use the fast age up as iroquois, does that mean Sporting's strat is bad?
My strats have copyrights, you don't see any expert FIing with ports either :p But the fast age up has already proven it can be worth it, perhaps if I used wise woman I would have the same or even better results but I have fun with fast up and it's efficient - you even said iros were OP/too strong :p
Navarone_Guy
Honorary Officer
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:02 am
Location: Over there

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by Navarone_Guy »

[quote=""36drew""]I downloaded the great plains game but can't watch it.

EDIT: Got it to work. Here are some pointers.

1. Your first batch of villagers started at 20 seconds -- way too late -- should be 11-13 for russia. Thats 7-9 seconds faster you can hit age II.
2. You neglected to grab the scout treasure at 1:10 --possibly the most awesome treasure in the game (seriously).
3. Your way point needs to be set on hunts; you had villagers running nowhere.
4. Wood trickle = great first card.
5. Never 17 vill age up.... ever -- in 1.01 it's never a good idea in any situation 1v1 or team or if you are facing a slow civ. Never do it again. Always 14 villagers even if your TC idle's a few seconds. If you 14 + wood trickle you hit colonial with a 16.5 villager eco at 4:30 which is as good as most civs (germany = 17, brit = 16, spain = 16, etc).
6. Okay, he is in age 2 and you haven't even hit the age up button? As soon as you have 800 food you need to click it -- you can't wait a single sencond longer. MASH on your damn mouse and beat it to death. I never wanna see such a horrible age up time again.
7. Eco theroy is a 5-6-7ish card -- NEVER YOUR SECOND CARD EVER.
8. Blockhouse should be placed to secure hunts.
9. You don't need a second blockhouse like you made when you hit age ii -- it has zero purpose.
10. 400 wood normally should go to your tc -- its safer to gather in case of rush.
11. Good early raid.
12. PLease constantly train vills, especailly when you have masses of extra resourece. T + V should be your habit.
13. Nice villager pinch in the corner.
14. More idle TC time -- not good.
15. Horrible villager balance at 12 minutes you have:
-- 1 on food
-- 6 on wood
-- 10 on gold
And 6 idle. For russia you should always have 70-80% of your villagers on food, and maybe even more like 90% in early colonial.
16. Wall serves NO purpose -- secured no hunts.
17. Cav on stretley is good use of coutner system.
18. You reseearch stagecoach and don't put to res? LOL.
19. Still not making villager what the... (seriously this alone would raise your pr 3-4, not joking)
20. Obviously micro misaktes like leaving cannons completely open.
21. You make a whole 1 group of villagers!

You lost the game because you did not make villagers period. And for that you definetly deserved the loss 100%.[/quote]

Your pointers seem kind of harsh... remember, we're here to offer constructive criticism, not bashing them. Especially 14-16 and 18-21.
Groovy.
User avatar
36drew
Honorary Officer
Posts: 2713
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:22 am

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by 36drew »

[quote=""Navarone_Guy""][quote=""36drew""]I downloaded the great plains game but can't watch it.

EDIT: Got it to work. Here are some pointers.

1. Your first batch of villagers started at 20 seconds -- way too late -- should be 11-13 for russia. Thats 7-9 seconds faster you can hit age II.
2. You neglected to grab the scout treasure at 1:10 --possibly the most awesome treasure in the game (seriously).
3. Your way point needs to be set on hunts; you had villagers running nowhere.
4. Wood trickle = great first card.
5. Never 17 vill age up.... ever -- in 1.01 it's never a good idea in any situation 1v1 or team or if you are facing a slow civ. Never do it again. Always 14 villagers even if your TC idle's a few seconds. If you 14 + wood trickle you hit colonial with a 16.5 villager eco at 4:30 which is as good as most civs (germany = 17, brit = 16, spain = 16, etc).
6. Okay, he is in age 2 and you haven't even hit the age up button? As soon as you have 800 food you need to click it -- you can't wait a single sencond longer. MASH on your damn mouse and beat it to death. I never wanna see such a horrible age up time again.
7. Eco theroy is a 5-6-7ish card -- NEVER YOUR SECOND CARD EVER.
8. Blockhouse should be placed to secure hunts.
9. You don't need a second blockhouse like you made when you hit age ii -- it has zero purpose.
10. 400 wood normally should go to your tc -- its safer to gather in case of rush.
11. Good early raid.
12. PLease constantly train vills, especailly when you have masses of extra resourece. T + V should be your habit.
13. Nice villager pinch in the corner.
14. More idle TC time -- not good.
15. Horrible villager balance at 12 minutes you have:
-- 1 on food
-- 6 on wood
-- 10 on gold
And 6 idle. For russia you should always have 70-80% of your villagers on food, and maybe even more like 90% in early colonial.
16. Wall serves NO purpose -- secured no hunts.
17. Cav on stretley is good use of coutner system.
18. You reseearch stagecoach and don't put to res? LOL.
19. Still not making villager what the... (seriously this alone would raise your pr 3-4, not joking)
20. Obviously micro misaktes like leaving cannons completely open.
21. You make a whole 1 group of villagers!

You lost the game because you did not make villagers period. And for that you definetly deserved the loss 100%.[/quote]

Your pointers seem kind of harsh... remember, we're here to offer constructive criticism, not bashing them. Especially 14-16 and 18-21.[/quote]

They seem harsh because I feel they need to be in this scenario. The message needs to be made clear! Sometimes a little footing around the problem doesn't do any good and sometimes it takes a more blunt approach.

And if you or anyone feels like actually watching the game -- please do so. You will quickly feel my pain!
User avatar
Soccerman771
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Sachse, Texas (near Dallas)
Contact:

Re: SevereBeating IndyBrit league games

Post by Soccerman771 »

Both games were quite good. Preston your downfall is you are not aggressive enough.

You would have easily won the Bayou game had you done 3 very simple things.

1. Scout just a tad better
2. Set your home city drop-off at your forward war hut
3. Shipped 4 Kanyas as your first colonial shipment.

He had 16 tasty vils out in the open un-protected with only lb's coming out. Use the big-button for any pikes he may build, but otherwise that game should have been yours.
jtackel@hotmail.com

"Do you know how difficult it is to micro Napalm?" - Lazy_Tuga

"This isn't going to work. I've picked a water deck and there isn't even a pond on this map." - Blackadderthe4th
Post Reply