How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

General Discussion about Age of Empires III: Definitive Edition

Moderators: Global Moderator, Age Moderator

Do the changes in N3O FP 1.3 justify India? You Vote!

Poll runs till Sun Feb 11, 2052 5:43 am

1 (Poor)
1
50%
2 (Below Average)
0
No votes
3 (Average; not much change)
0
No votes
4 (Good)
1
50%
5 (Excellent)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 2

User avatar
murdilator
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Norway

How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by murdilator »

I first want to go through India's problems, both OP and UP, and the solutions presented in N3O FP Beta 1.3.

India is slightly slow in the beginning of the game. Sepoy are strong early game, but lack lategame upgrades, which balances them. They could use, however, an early nerf and lategame boost. Howdahs need more damage multiplier against cavalry. In fact, even Gurkha and Rajputs are lacking in upgrades - India needs a nerfed Sepoy and an Infantry Combat Card. Mahouts need more damage against heavy infantry lategame and more area attack lategame. Rajputs need more HP, less damage, increased multiplier vs cav, and less food cost. They also need an armor and speed boost lategame. Sowars are a little weak overall, but are too strong against skirmisher units - this causes imbalance. Zamburacks need a little more HP and range early on so that they don't die to hand cavalry in Colonial. Flail Elephants are a joke in a battle, and they cannot run away from danger, and are too cheap to train. Their overall design of current is awful, not being able to reach the building or artillery piece they are meant to destroy. Also, having only two Sacred Fields does not suffice as a civ "bonus," especially as India has an 8% XP penalty. Livestock autogathering may also be OP though, and may need to be nerfed to 0.08 or 0.05 (instead of 0.10). Lategame Agra Forts are almost useless as wonders and nobody ever uses them, Charminar Gate does not give much of a bonus, and Mansabdars do not have enough HP to survive battles. The Mughal Architecture Card, however is completely OP. Indian mercenary units, such as Arsonists and Jat Lancers, do not have enough HP, and Arsonists costed a bit too much and did not have enough speed, range, or damage caption. Chakrams also did not have a good enough damage output against cavalry. The Indian '300' is a bit too strong, and Urumi are too good against the Aztec military.

Let us go through what has been done to India in N3O Beta Patch 1.3. There is a vote between a 1 through 5, 1 being not very good and 5 being excellent, of how well this balances India. Any constructive criticism would be helpful.


INDIA

o India recieves +1 coin crate upon hitting Colonial Age.

o Sowar hitpoints increased to 235, hand attack increased to 22, (trample 14). Multiplier against infantry to 1.25x, 0.8x against Heavy Infantry. Mansabdar reworked to new stats.

o Camel Damage Card: effect reduced to 20%.

o Desert Terror Card gives Sowars +0.25x bonus against infantry, and -0.13x multiplier against Heavy Infantry. This increased the 1.25x/0.8x to a 1.5x/0.67x.

o Sepoy ranged attack reduced to 23, hand attack to 14. Mansabder reworked to new stats. (In order to match with other musketeers).

o Rajput hitpoints increased to 170, cost reduced to 75 food, 35 wood, hand attack reduced to 16, cover hand attack to 8, bonus against cavalry increased to 3.5x, bonus against Light infantry increased to 2.8x, LOS increased to 14 (up from 12). Bounty decreased to 11. Mansabdar reworked to new stats.

o 7 Rajputs Card: effect increased to deliver 8 Rajputs.

o 11 Rajputs Card: effect increased to deliver 12 Rajputs.

o 13 Rajputs Card: effect increased to deliver 14 Rajputs.

o Honored Rajput Tech: now also gives Rajputs +50% Armor (from 0.20 to 0.30).

o Dravidian Martial Arts Card: now also gives Rajputs +10% Speed (from 5.0 to 5.50).

o Native Trade Tax +1 Villager Card: Content replaced by Indian Infantry Combat, which gives Indian Infantry (Sepoys, Gurkhas, Rajputs, and Urumi) +15% Hitpoints and Attack. This is available in Fortress Age for India.

o Howdah multiplier against cavalry increased to 3.0x, multiplier against light infantry increased to 2.4x. Mansabdar reworked to new stats.

o Flail Elephant hitpoints increased to 375, cost increased to 140 food, 140 coin hand attack increased to 11, speed increased to 4.8, and siege attack increased to 110, with 2.0 ROF. Bounty increased to 28. Mansabdar reworked to new stats.

o Mansabdars now have the equivalent of 3x HP of their unit, and have improved personal armor. Also, Elephant Mansabdars, the Sowar Mansabdar and the Urumi Mansabdar now take up the equivalent of 1.5x population count of their standard unit counterpart.

o Colonial Charminar Gate now delivers 2 Sowars and 1 Stable Wagon.

o Charminar Gate Wonder: now gives +10% Elephant base hitpoints and damage aura, in addition to what it already gives. (Needs testing).

o Fortress Agra hitpoints increased to 5000, damage to 40, caption to 80, and anti-ship attack to 150.

o Industrial Agra hitpoints increased to 7500, damage to 75, caption to 150, range increased to 26, LOS to 34, and anti-ship attack to 200.

o Imperial Agra hitpoints increased to 8500, damage to 125, caption to 250, range to 28, LOS to 36, and anti-ship attack to 300.

o Delhi Gate upgrade: now also gives Agra Forts +2.0 Range and LOS, but now costs 200 wood, 200 coin (up from 150 wood, 150 coin). The Fortress Agra and the Imperial Agra recieve just +25% damage (instead of +50%), plus the Colonial Agra recieves +20% HP (to makes it 5000), and the Fortress Agra recieves +30% HP (to make it 6500).

o Red Fort upgrade: now also gives Agra Forts +2.0 Range and LOS, but now costs 300 wood, 300 coin (up from 200 wood, 200 coin). All Agra Forts now receive +50% damage as well (instead of only Colonial Agra), but the Fortress Agra recieves +62.5% damage (to make it 75 damage) and the Colonial Agra recieves +62.5% HP (to make it 7500 Total HP).

o Industrial Agra delivers 7 Gurkha and upgrades Delhi Gate upgrade free.

o Imperial Agra delivers 14 Gurkha, and upgrades Delhi Gate upgrade free.

o Gurkha Aid Card now gives Gurkha +0.5x bonus against Light Cavalry to match with Counter Infantry Rifling. Gurkha Aid also upgrades Counter Infantry Rifling Tech.

o Zamburack HP increased to 125, range increased to 11, and LOS to 14. Mansabdar Zamburack also affected.

o Disciplined Zamburack Tech: now gives Zamburacks just +1.0 Range and LOS (Down from +2.0 Range and LOS).

o Mahout cost reduced to 385 food, 235 wood, caption increased to 63 (up from 56), trample caption reduced to at 105 (down from 112). Bounty reduced to 62. Mansabdar reworked to new stats.

o Honored Mahout Tech gives Mahouts +0.15x bonus to Heavy Infantry. Mansabdar also affected.

o Monastary Crushing Force Tech (Stomp Upgrade): now also gives Mahouts +1.0 Area Attack.

o Siege Elephant cost reduced to 275 wood, 375 coin. Bounty reduced to 65. Mansabder reworked to new stats.

o Sepoy Rebellion Card: now costs 2200 wood (up from 2000 wood).

o Sacred Fields: build limit set to 1 in Discovery Age, with 10 sacred cow build limit; 2 in Colonial Age, with 20 sacred cow build limit; and 3 in Fortress Age, with 30 sacred cow build limit.

o Ritual Bovines Tech effect increased to +35% Sacred Field gathering (up from +25%).

o Honored Urumi Tech (Verumkai Urumi): now also gives Urumi a 0.75x multiplier against Arrow Knights.

Extra:

o Chakrams and Homecity Chakram armor increased to 0.60, hand attack increased to 11, penalty against cavalry reduced to 0.6x (up from 0.5x), and siege attack increased to 26 (up from 18).

o Jat Lancer hitpoints increased to 650. Repentant Jat Lancers are also affected (Jats were a bit fragile).

o Arsonist hitpoints increased to 320, speed increased to 4.50, caption increased from 48 to 63 (caption 2.25x original damage, which is standard for grenadiers), cost reduced to 285, hand attack increased to 17, Volley range increased to 14, LOS to 16. Repentant Arsonists are also affected.

o Hire Indian Arsonits Card: effect increased to deliver 7 Arsonists.


Aztec Change:

o Champion Arrow Knight Tech: now also gives Arrow Knights +1.75x bonus against Urumi Swordsman. This was done to give the Aztecs a reasonable lategame counter to Urumi.

----------

Herdable auto-XP rate has not yet been touched, which it seems it needs to be nerfed slightly. So far I have playtested and balanced quite a bit, but I want India to be beatable and not crazily OP. I am thinking of making the Ritual Bovines upgrade only give +30% Sacred Field XP gathering or just leave it unchanged at +25% Sacred Field XP gathering. Mughal Architecture is slightly nerfed, taking some of the spike out of India's boom and India's wall and castle spamming. India's '300' is nerfed indirectly by Sepoy nerf (needs an extra card to get former stats), slight Howdah boost, etc. Indian Infantry are balanced, as Gurkhas will also no longer be dominated in Skrim battles, Howdahs and Zamburacks are justified, Mahouts and Sowars are more all-rounded, and Flails and Siege Elephants can do their jobs. Siege Elephants are actually a bit in question right now; I may have to make it a bit less of a cost reduction, say 285 wood and 385 coin, with 67 XP bounty, or 285 wood and 400 coin, with 69 XP bounty, or just let them remain at their high cost. Any other thoughts? Maybe Portuguese Consulate changed to -10% ship and non-building coin costs (instead of -15% non-building coin costs)? Other than this, India is looking quite fine. But I give you the vote. I ask for you to give an evaluation of how you think it is.





regards,





murdilator
"Feel the Might of the Sioux!" - Gall, when fighting and defeating your army at his own base.

---------------

Scenario Design Competition Participant 2009:

3v3 WildernessRoad: https://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/ ... ileid=2521
User avatar
jerom
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1555
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by jerom »

I think, that what india really needs is a small early boost, so that they can rush a bit better, and so that they can play boomy but with enough units to be aggresive early on which allows them to stop faster/better boomers and semi-ff'ers from doing the boom/ff.
Soccerman771 wrote:Just make sure you do keep some blood in your alcohol system, ok.
Bart331
Major
Major
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:31 am

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by Bart331 »

if you make 3 million changes its impossible to determine the effect

so idk
User avatar
jerom
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1555
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by jerom »

Bart you have got to watch at the whole thing the changes do and summarize it to 1 or 2 really important changes..
Soccerman771 wrote:Just make sure you do keep some blood in your alcohol system, ok.
User avatar
murdilator
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Norway

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by murdilator »

At the present, I can see India being strong in team games, but having some problems as you say. Maybe +1 starting food crate, but +25 or +30 seconds to Colonial Agra Fort Build time? This could fix early start and give them some speed back. However, it could make a Mahout FF OP in speed. The coin crate seems good as well, but maybe this helps just for an FF as well. Remember, though, that India now has Rajputs and Flail Elephants in its Colonial Arsenal, and the camels start initially better, while not as highly effected by cards and upgrades. I could easily see a Semi-FF that used Gurkha, a couple Rajputs/Zambs, followed by 3 castles, 3-4 Flail Elephants, and a defensive Fortress boom with more Gurkha, perhaps some Sepoy, and Mahouts + Urumi. This could easily cope with other Semi-FFs, as it has a solid defense, an all-rounded army. Early Rajputs would keep Pikemen at bay, Gurkha would be free to do damage, and Flails could mess around with skirmisher units, while maintaining a decent economy. Also, it could be viable to use the Fortress Agra for Age up, as long as it is protected. However, this does not pertain to early aggressive rushing. Perhaps aging with 2 Sowars+1 Stable Wagon, ordering 4 Sowars, followed by 600 wood or 600 coin could be a viable option? This could fake your opponent, while you build a consulate, barracks, a house and market. Also, don't forget the 2 TEAM Flails card and 7 Chakrams cards. They might be more worth it now since the units are boosted.


As to further balance, I am also going to remove the Ritual Bovines boost, returning it to the original +25%, and make Siege Eles cost a little bit more, say 285 wood, 385 coin, or leave their cost at 300 wood, 400 coin. Everything else are mid-game and late-game changes. I know that it seems extremely complex, but believe me, a lot of small changes can work wonders in a regular game.
"Feel the Might of the Sioux!" - Gall, when fighting and defeating your army at his own base.

---------------

Scenario Design Competition Participant 2009:

3v3 WildernessRoad: https://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/ ... ileid=2521
User avatar
jerom
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1555
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by jerom »

What about bringing distributivism back to its normal rate of 1.25 instead of 1.00 ?

Furthermore it seems they could do some nice ff action :D

EDIT: Also, I dont exactly know how good the zamburak are right now, but I think India would be very capable of doing a 5 zamburak semi ff against the 5 huss semi-ff 's of other civs.
Soccerman771 wrote:Just make sure you do keep some blood in your alcohol system, ok.
User avatar
murdilator
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Norway

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by murdilator »

I am interested in the distributivism change. It is justified; especially since all other trickle cards have been boosted.

I agree with you on Zamburacks. The early improvement in the Zamburack unit was for the reason you specified. I had actually found that Zamburacks would die to hand cavalry too fast in early Colonial, so having an early boost, while nerfing the disciplined upgrade slightly, solved the problem. They are indeed worth it now :). However, they do not need any range boost lategame, or else they will become OP, as I have tested.

Also, the Charminar Gate Elephant Bonus - will be increased to +15% Elephant base hitpoints and attack. I may make it affect Camels as well, but just +10% base HP and attack, as to make the 2 Sowars + 1 Stable Wagon age-up a considerable option, especially since Camel Damage card has been nerfed to +20%. It would also give players an incentive to use this wonder late game for another reason other than Mansabdars. Usually, if players have the chance, they tend to like the Taj Mahal for 1500 coin to Industrial rather than Mansabdars.

I plan on changing the Sowar, if the Charminar Gate change follows, back to the original, or let them keep 235 HP. This would ensue returning Desert Terror to its original state as well.

Also, Honored Mahout Tech will give +50% damage (up from +30%) instead of an extra +0.15 multiplier against Heavy Infantry.

The Exalted Mahout Tech will give +80% damage (up from +50%).

With Disciplined, Honored, Exalted Mahout Techs, Elephant Combat, Dravidian Martial Arts, Charminar Elephant Gate Bonus, TEAM Shivashi's Tactics, British Consulate, and Monastery Stomp Upgrade, Mahouts would recieve +140% HP (to about 2200 HP), +200% damage (to 84) and 3 area. This would keep them balanced early game and in fortress age, while keeping them a competitive hand cavalry lategame. The only thing I worry about it their ridiculous siege attack. That would be 100 +200%, or 300 siege damage. But considering that they are still hard to mass, since wood is needed for buildings, Rajputs and Siege Elephants, it would not be a problem late-game - except for opponents ;).

I also think that I may nerf the Tame Elephants Card to just -8% Elephant cost and train points, to balance the slight cost reductions I have given Mahouts and Siege Elephants. However, this is not too important.

Siege Elephant cost is balanced at 285 wood, 385 coin.

Perhaps make Incan tech give only -10% Train points for Elephants and Cheyenne Tech only give -15% Train points for Elephants. Instant Elephants are no fun at all. In part I mean to nerf the Cheyenne Tech to -25% Cavalry train points.

I am also fixing other bugs I have found in this work. May have to wait for while until I get around to do these changes, since I have some school to do.


regards,



murdilator
"Feel the Might of the Sioux!" - Gall, when fighting and defeating your army at his own base.

---------------

Scenario Design Competition Participant 2009:

3v3 WildernessRoad: https://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/ ... ileid=2521
User avatar
jerom
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1555
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by jerom »

I think india is pretty well balanced like this :D, aging with charmin thing gate to colonial is imo viable for the stable wagon and 2 sowars and seems really good to me (in a balanced way)
Soccerman771 wrote:Just make sure you do keep some blood in your alcohol system, ok.
_WaRRioR_
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:30 am

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by _WaRRioR_ »

Sinc when does N3O clan have a fp 1.3?? Why are u still working on the patch man, not enought people on fp1.2 anyway. Waste of your Time Imo
StrokeyBlofeld
Clan Leader
Clan Leader
Posts: 2828
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:36 am
Location: Bristol UK
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by StrokeyBlofeld »

[quote=""_WaRRioR_""]Sinc when does N3O clan have a fp 1.3?? Why are u still working on the patch man, not enought people on fp1.2 anyway. Waste of your Time Imo[/quote]

Some people enjoy doing this kind of stuff.... what's the problem?
_WaRRioR_
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:30 am

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by _WaRRioR_ »

[quote=""StrokeyBlofeld""][quote=""_WaRRioR_""]Sinc when does N3O clan have a fp 1.3?? Why are u still working on the patch man, not enought people on fp1.2 anyway. Waste of your Time Imo[/quote]

Some people enjoy doing this kind of stuff.... what's the problem?[/quote]

Well maybe I was bit harsh. If he likes it its oke for me, he does what he wants afcorse. My point is just that even if the balance is good and his patch would be better then current fp1.2, nobody will play it. So maybe its better just to play the game instead of writing somuch down about a patch....but again, if he likes programming, i dont have problems with it.
User avatar
murdilator
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Norway

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by murdilator »

Wait, Jerom, do you mean to say go on with new changes (boosted Mahouts) or not? I do not completely understand. If so, then I will do what I just said, but Camels will not be affected by Charminar Gate, and will not touch the new Sowars. Also, I worry about the huge Mahout trample attack and siege attack - en masse they could dominate their counters. However, if not to go on with all new changes, then I will just follow with Distributivism, Eles getting +15% stats from Charminar Gate (needs extra testing) and slightly more expensive Siege Elephants.


Another idea would be to lower Villager cost, say 90 wood or 85 wood, but this is unnecessary.


EDIT: Charminar Gate will remain at +10% Elephant Stats boost. Wood trickle seems ok at its original 1.25 wood per second, although strong. Slightly expensive Siege Elephants are fine as well. No other real changes are needed for India; however, the Portuguese Consulate may need to be changed to -10% Ship (including fishing boats) and non-coin building costs, as it is too boom friendly to India and Japan (or just good) and too turtle friendly to India (154 wood castles after Mughal Archi and Portuguese Consulate Ally). I am afraid that changing the Portuguese Consulate affect would have too drastic effect on gameplay, especially on Water Maps, though it should be ok, especially since the Asians don't have the greatest warships. Another solution would be to make Mughal Architecture give only -10% building wood cost (instead of -15%).



Also: I completely forgive you Warrior and Bart :). If you have some fun, nonlame suggestions that would spice up gameplay, I mean even be willing to fantasize here, give it a shot. The best suggestions are often the ones people scorn the most :).


regards,



murdilator
Last edited by murdilator on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Feel the Might of the Sioux!" - Gall, when fighting and defeating your army at his own base.

---------------

Scenario Design Competition Participant 2009:

3v3 WildernessRoad: https://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/ ... ileid=2521
User avatar
jerom
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1555
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by jerom »

Actually I was thinking about using the charmine thing to age to colonial to pull off a nice semi ff
Soccerman771 wrote:Just make sure you do keep some blood in your alcohol system, ok.
User avatar
murdilator
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:29 pm
Location: Norway

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by murdilator »

I have some updates on the work. I have found that 90 wood villagers is a much better option than a 1.25 Wood Trickle. With 90 wood villagers, India has an early economic boost and as a result, with more villagers, can make a 4:00 minute Colonial (I have just gotten 4:03). The 1.25 wood trickle would have been OP, and it would have forced India to use it every game and not give flexibility.

How to get a 4 minute Colonial and 17 villagers with India?


1st Card: Distributivism
2nd Card: Possibly 700 food, 600 wood, 600 coin, unit shipment, 300 Export, etc.

Ok. First off, after you micro vils a little bit around and start training villagers, send four of them to wood, then the fifth to wood, and the sixth that is gathering the rest of the crates to food. Que your villagers onto food, until you get four (this includes the one that was gathering the crates). Remember to go for small treasures and exploring with your Brahmin. You will have 9-10 villagers now. Make the 10th villager go onto wood, so that you have 4 on food, and 6 on wood, and que more villagers continuously onto food. You should send your first card, Distributivism, now. At 2:00 minutes, take four of your wood villagers and put them on huntables. You should have 10-11 on food, and 2 on wood, with Distributivism arriving shortly, if not already arrived. You should have 13 on food and 2 on wood when you have around 800 food. Age with Tower of Victory, Charminar Gate or Karni Mata with five of your food villagers, and take four of the other food vils and place them back onto wood. This leaves you with 5 on the wonder, 4 on food, and 6 on wood. Have the next villager from the Town Center go on the wonder, and the other one onto food. Arrive ~4:00 minutes into Colonial, with 18-19 villager count. You should be able to construct a barracks right as you hit Colonial, and have a shipment ready for whatever you want. I suggest 700 food to bolster Unit spamming. This way, you could have 15 Gurkha, 1 castle, 5 Sepoy, + Minute men units against an Aztec Rush, for instance. Rajputs are also a viable support option, not to mention Flail Elephants for some early support.


This is possible with the 90 wood villager change. Indian Villager XP bounty remains the same. The cost reduction was necessary though, especially since wood gathers slower than food early on. The Agra Fort 10/10 should not be OP, as Sepoys have had their attack nerfed.


Just keeping you all updated :).




regards,





murdilator
"Feel the Might of the Sioux!" - Gall, when fighting and defeating your army at his own base.

---------------

Scenario Design Competition Participant 2009:

3v3 WildernessRoad: https://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/ ... ileid=2521
User avatar
jerom
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1555
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht
Contact:

Re: How well justified is India in N3O FP Beta 1.3?

Post by jerom »

I feel like that needs some testing regarding the 10/10 rush, but I think it'll be just fine.
Soccerman771 wrote:Just make sure you do keep some blood in your alcohol system, ok.
Post Reply