Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

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GeneralMichael
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by GeneralMichael »

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""][quote=""LaZy""][quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]... When it gets to 40~ ish units it's just attack move all the way[/quote]

Amen 2 that

out[/quote]

i even do that with 5 units :oops:[/quote]

i try to attack move when at above 20 units, unfortunatley it always seems that they go yeah ok boss, and then they just march right up to the enemy before they fire :?
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by IndyBrit »

Attack move in big battles is very dangerous. You have to do it, because it's the only way your units have a chance to defend themselves while moving. You just have to be aware that maybe they didn't get the message (maybe it's my comp, but attack move is 50/50 any time there is a big, busy battle). Grab 'em when they get close and put 'em to work.

And at my play level - we've never noticed balance issues except in the worst cases (France FF, Japan, that's about it). Honestly, this game has always been so balanced that players cannot win between tiers even laming. No sergeant is going to beat me with the lamest strategy 1v1 even though I'm pretty bad 1v1, and I'm not going to beat 36Drew at 1v1 even if I pick his strategy and mine.

We're a bit spoiled on games these days, because the balance is so good. In the bad old days, game testing was so awful that you could figure out the secret strategy and win every time (e.g. use Water Elementals in Warcraft - the Demons for the Orcs couldn't hold up; hold down fire just right on Atari Combat battle 9 as it starts and you get a free kill on your opponent). And a PATCH??? HO HO HO HO HO. There are numerous examples over the years.

I'm enjoying this game, even if I go down to a hail of spammed Maces every time in 1v1. Team games are a great leveler as well, and they enable viable games wiht multiple strategies.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by luukje »

lol team game balance, that would be even harder, but most team games are random - only tournament games are competitive?

i have a feelin with current balance and conservative tactics it's even harder to beat a player from a higher tier than you.
They dont do risky FF or rushes that you can counter if you them coming or at the same time you cant ff, fi, ... without just being 5 hussar semi ff (wich counters almost everything).
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by IndyBrit »

Well, maybe balance isn't the right word for team games. There's usually much more opportunity to recover from mistakes and more general flexibility in the game. I've never had much luck with selected teams, it seems that you don't know how the matchup is going to work until it's played.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by 36drew »

You are certainly right that you have more options in team games -- and balance isn't the right word, but I can't think of what is.

Diversity maybe -- but I kinda thought that was a ship that sailed in the 16th century -- not sure though.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by thanster »

france semi ff is total laming. a sarge could pull it off with relative ease
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by generalbuschmann »

but a sergeant would loose vs musk/hi rushs?
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by thanster »

well if he scouts well and sees the enemys rax going up and them mining gold then he know s that thier going HI so he can jsut throw up a rax instead and make 10 musks then semi ff. 10 musks + mm will pwn HI rushes. and once your cannons get in they are really screwed. the only one that would be hard to semi ff agaisnt would be otto jan rush, but if you just go french musket rush you can beat them.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by 36drew »

[quote=""thanster""]france semi ff is total laming. a sarge could pull it off with relative ease[/quote]

I disagree here. The semi-FF is actually quite difficult if you ask me. If you herd poorly -- you will run out of food and leave yourself vulnerable to raids, rushes, and harasses. Not to mention once you get there you won't have any resources to spam with.

Also, if you do your math wrong somewhere along the way (say you find yourself 100coin short). You've basically sacrified everything for nothing as your opponent can easily take advantage of this. And in my experience, at this stage of the game an opponent will have shown up at your base.

It's also quite a predictable strat. If you scout an early stables from france, it is quite obvious you will see a semi-ff, unless its coupled with a barracks. Furthermore, lets assume you actually reach age iii with ease. The micro here is not easy. You are playing with a 3 unit combo -- skirm, goon, falc -- perhaps skirm, goon, curr. This is not an easy combo to micro.

No 3 unit combo is easy to micro. Musk/huss is the popular 2 unit combo because it is so much easier to micro than other combinations. Your shipments won't exactly be pouring in either -- you can't just aimlessly through your army at your enemy. Can you earn an advantage with a semi-ff? Absolutely. It's much easier said than done -- and I respect those who are extremely good at it. I am a much better player with it comes to early pressure and fighting in colonial -- and then going up at about 10-12 minutes, rather than just making 5-10 horses and aging up. Things get complicated.

I personally find it easier to win a game by slowing killing a player from the 6 minute mark +, rather than semi-ffing and have 1 or 2 main fights that decide a game.

And it seems to have gotten me somewhat far. France might be lame for other reasons -- they could have that shipment bonus removed, and they would be fine. I've posted before on the math of why it absolutely changes the nature of France specifically. It's exponential in nature -- France is basically like a perpetual motion machine that keeps on gaining more and more momentum as the match goes on.

My 2 bayonets.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by 36drew »

The French semi-FF is either the best or 2nd best strategy in the game right now. The Dutch semi-ff (or its variations) are pretty much the only thing that can compete with it. Brits have a chance with dual rax pikes and early pressure if you can contain the player enough, but not many civs have too great a chance.

The simple fact is that in too many cases against a French semi-FF you are fighting age 3 units with age 2 units. This just doesn't work. It never has and it never will (baring huge mass differences). It's not only the quality of units that makes the difference, but the availibility of units that makes the difference. Aging up for veteran hussars isn't necessarily that great -- but aging up for ranged cav and 20 range LI is.

You are pretty much bang-on in your description of how French games shake out. Raid with multiple cav groups, use CDB's to fend off the rush, and go age iii for shipments that now arrive 5% faster. To those of you who don't think thats huge, that means your first shipment is 6 seconds sooner, second 18 seconds sooner, third 24 seconds, fourth 30 seconds... etc. And when you hit age iii this adds up 6 + 12 + 18 + 24 + 30 = 1 minute and 30 seconds... that means he is that much ahead of you on shipments already. That basically means an extra 2 falc, 3 curr, 5 goon, or 8 skirm. That is HUGE. And the bonus keeps on gaining on itself too -- like a parabola approaching infinity (or like a perpetual motion machine going faster and faster).

And then of course you are right about HI. France OWNS it. Skirms, goons, falcs, and even villagers?

It's kind of a weird scenario since all of this is really very micro heavy, but it rewards the micro very well... possibly too well. And my God are you ever right that things get scary when things go quiet... 3 Tc's... heavy breating... solitary confinement... GG no RE.

The longer things go the harder it gets. Take that 5% shipment speed back and things are livable again.

Time for a prayer...

In the name of the hussar, the curr, and the skirmisher...
Our CDB's who art in heaven, hallowed be thy range resistance...
Forgive us this day, our daily market ups...
And lead us not into two falcs... and deliver us from currs....
Amen.
Here is that post BTW.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by thanster »

well, yea the micro is def. cap plus in a semi ff, but like i said, you dont ALWAYS have to go for 5 hus semi, you could fake them out with a forward barracks or someting, make the ten muskets, and then go up. and you have to make your deck tricky. you cant make it an obvious semi ff or naked ff, or else they will rush you straight to hell. yea i was probly wrong saying it was sargeant level, but it certainly is a little OP right?
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

I'm not sure if the french cookie cutter semi-ff is that epic.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by IndyBrit »

I'm going to beat a sergeant with virtually any Brit strat against a French semi-FF. They will simply make too many mistakes and even my poopy micro will take them out. I can't tell you how many times I've crushed someone in a battle where I was outnumbered and had inferior units, simply because I put a 20% micro effort in and my opponent put in none. I'm sure that LaZy and 36Drew have though the same thing when fighting me (except 20%/0% above is 80%/20% or something like that).

For example, typically, against a lower ranked opponent, longbows>hussars, longbows>cannons, and ofc longbows> than any other unit - usually you don't even need to make pikes. I could tell you the secret of my cheesy little longbow moves to beat hussars and cannons, but then they might stop working. I can tell they they don't work against 36Drew. :-P They don't work against well-escorted cannons, either, but again usually you can separate units by maneuver and it doesn't take much separation since lbow range is almost as far as cannon range.

Timing is everything on these strats - if I get there before your 8 skirms ships, before your goons show up, or get my pikes in close by the time your cannons show, it's gg. Even if not, my booming eco by this point is going to hold you off. If you can beat me with a few superior units against my mass of scrubs you win, but that doesn't happen if you're a sergeant.

There may be OP/lame strats on the whole. However, I can't think of any recent ones where people can actually win outside their pay grade. There were some nasty Iro Toma rushes I think, but again I don't really remember that working too far out of the player's skill level.
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Jan rushes aren't "lame" and they're a pain in the butt for many
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Re: Most Boring 1v1 Matchups in AOE 3

Post by thanster »

how do you beat hussars with longbows.... just split the hus into two control groups and flank them so if they back up they back up right into your hussars behidn them >:D but yea, a sarge probly wouldnt use control groups :P and why would you go all bows with out pikes anyway :P as for cannons, they have a 25 rang and lb's have 20. and if you fix your bows on their cannons , you will be getting mown down by all their other units. they will be spamming skirms and probly goons, or if you have loads of bows, more hussar. just sayin :P but if you saw the stable you could just all out pike rush them and kill thier tc then you would have an easy gg
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