new lamest civ

[Soccerman771]

From the perspective of team games (I mainly play 3v3's), Dutch are OP. Their 3-bank FF is incredibly stong and they can support saloon units very early similar to 1.0.

Next is Aztec. They can spam coyotes at will and since they have ranged resistance, most pikes cannot catch them. The also have speed/stealth/armor upgrades. Their most sneaky "ability" is that they are smaller than normal "cav", which means it's much more difficult to micro on them. Mix in mace and it is very difficult to stop them.

Next is Brits & Ports, then most others follow very closely.

All that said - this is the most balanced the game has been.

[deadhanddan]

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]Portugal may not be OP as japan or iro used to be, but they have a powerful and probably lame rush. It may not be very effective at pro-level, but for anybody else it does really well. How can one deny this? It's faster than iro rush in previous fan patch...
In many games, my opponents failed to get their rax up on time, or lost many vils to do so. I always had to initialtive, controled the hunts, spammed from 2 TCs while making military etc... Tubby, what you said is clearly pure guessing and not based on experience.


[quote=""blayzer13""]what would win a fight, 14 maces or 8 xbow+6 musk?[/quote]

this will never happen, before your first 9 maces arrive, the port player will already be sniping vils with 8 xbows and 5 or 10 musks. Unless you age up fast with aztecs and ship military first, you will suffer constant pressure... ask etrips how brutal it is.

If the rush doesn't kill you, you will run out of hunts, and forget about map control, you aint gonna tear down a TC early game.
Reaching III is so easy as well while the other is still recovering, usually I hit III around 10-11 mins...

I think the truth is: nobody is really trying this strat so it stays below the radar, which might be a good thing tho [/quote] that is exactly what i have been trying to explain chaos

[blayzer13]

chaos can u post a rec?

[Kaiser_von_Nuben]

So does this mean I should stop my experiments with the Ports :?: After all, I'm like Jim; I don't like playing so-called "lame civs."

I'm trying to figure out how the Germans are going to be in this patch. I have already discovered that the TC fire boost against cav really makes a difference against a 190 HP early uhlan, and that can hurt.

Aztecs and Iro are still OP in my view. They might not get 2 TCs in colonial, but they have war huts, mass shipments, guardians and HP-boosting/damage-soaking warchiefs and BBs to rush down anyone who stands in their way. I'd rather have those advantages than a fallow TC at 5:00.

Going back to Ports, though, those gunpowder infantry upgrades are really quite spectacular when combined with the advanced arsenal. I watched an expert rec last night in which Mayhem got his Age III muskets up to I think 39 ranged attack and 72 attack v. cav. Throw in some cassadors (which also benefit from the cards and the arsenal) and you have a really dangerous force! Who needs jinetes when you have massed super infantry!

[Tubruk]

Chaos, saying that the points i stated are guessed or have not been tested are false. you are wrong i have tested this with both 10 and 12 vil age ups. So please get your facts straight ohh wait you guessed that i didnt try it out didnt you?

[TheRam]

Sorry Chaos, but I'm agreeing with Tubruk on this, and I know for a fact that he has been playing with strategies, and he posted a rec of this.
It's honestly not easy to spam villagers out of 2 TCs whilst making military, meaning that whilst using both of our rushes there will be either lacking in military or economy after the initial push, vs most other civs.
I mean, if you age with 10 villagers have you actually checked the timelines to see what what point in the game you have the same number of villagers?
That's why the rush isn't OP, it's just quite effective.
I'm only representative of my PR though, I don't know how this works at lower levels but in my opinion the strategy isn't lame unless you are noob bashing with it, otherwise it's quite easy to see 'Okay, the port has aged fast and is using military' Early LI mass beats the rush effectively, and at that point it's not hard to mass some HI incase the port musters cav and go on the offensive, whilst shipping villager cards and still having a stronger economy.
The point is, any player that scouts properly and sees the forward base go up will immediately realise it's not in their best interest to keep their villagers in harms way, and gather behind or beside their base until they inevitably outmass you.

[deadhanddan]

the way p10 works is to make sure that the opponents eco is always weaker then his, if chaos sees u have retreated behind your tc he will make sure u stay their using up the berries , few trees , single gold mine etc. while he carefully masses and ages up for better cards and upped units . the 7 musk politician combined with cassa + organ cards is murderous.

[blayzer13]

i decided to try it out, and i must be doing something wrong, my army isnt hitting opponents base until 5:30 and im not hitting age 2 until 3:50

[deadhanddan]

when u hit age have 2-3 vills collect wood from age up crates , make sure to have 1 vill at your desired fb ,drop tc on same location , immediately build rax while shipping 8 bow+6 musks make sure you scout well and collect all food treasures , don't even bother collecting start wood+gold crate

[Aaryn_GenD]

[quote=""blayzer13""]i decided to try it out, and i must be doing something wrong, my army isnt hitting opponents base until 5:30 and im not hitting age 2 until 3:50[/quote]

you're doing something wrong, on normal crate maps i had age up times from 3:08 to 3:25 :-)
with nice food treasures it'll be super fast

i dunno, i don't find it too hard to spam vills from two tcs while massing army, 700food and/or philosopher prince are your friend here =)

good to see you agree with me soccer on the strongest civs, you jsut added up aztec which i don't see as that strong anymore

[KingVint]

[quote=""Cammel""]
The point is, any player that scouts properly and sees the forward base go up will immediately realise it's not in their best interest to keep their villagers in harms way, and gather behind or beside their base until they inevitably outmass you.[/quote]

3min 30s age up isn't the easiest thing to fight. I usually play China and am forced to ship 300 Food every time (heavy sacrifice to eco and pop space), otherwise my opponent keeps me off resources before I can even get a military building up to counter him. I would stay behind my base and "outmass" the port, but he usually gets pretty good hunt and map control early.

As far as the post topic is concerned. Ports have given me the biggest trouble. Iro and Aztec rushes haven't been as much of a pain.

[TheRam]

Dan, I understand the concept of the P10 keeping you behind your TC but the simple fact of the matter is that Musks die in 2 hits from a TC and on most maps there is plenty of resource behind your TC to keep you going till Fortress.
The musks die, the port wastes and potential economical advantage and you get pushed back.
I'm saying, you need as much economy as possible as fast as possible if your opponent doens't just see and army and give up. Port eco sucks unless you focus a lot of effort on it, I've played ports a lot and I think I know what I'm talking about.

[huGGy]

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""]
i seriously can't say yet too which civ would be the strongest, but i guess brits, dutch, germany have a good chance being on top[/quote]

It's a question about who is playing them. I totally suck with dutch. Not won a single game recently and i used to play them in TWC alot so i kinda know the BOs and stuff. Same goes for Brits. In Team games Brits rock like Sioux do. In 1on1 you really have to know how to play them. There are some good countering strategies. And with germans, i play them alot. They are fun, but not OP. I played some games with India when they were really really strong and with Iros, too. It was really easy to beat higher ranked players with those civs. With germans i have to fight to beat my rank/one above. Sometimes i lose vs Lieuts. So i think they are balanced.

[jonesk]

Most of my recent 1v1 games seem to involve the Dutch, whether it's me who's playing them, or the opposition. When playing with them, I have had mixed results, but when I lose there is always the feeling that it was my own mistakes and not any Dutch civ weaknesses which cost me the game. Even in the games which I won I had the feeling that I could have steamrolled the opposition if I had played a bit better.

On the other hand my last three games have involved me playing Spain vs Dutch, and winning quite easily. In all three games they did exactly the same thing, starting off by building pike/skirm, and then when I didn't attack, assuming (falsely) that it was safe to get a 3rd and 4th bank up.

So I'm definitely thinking Dutch are gonna be a top civ, but maybe at the lower levels this will not show so much as it is quite hard to play them correctly.

[I__CHAOS__I]

Cammel, u said in a other post that u didn't try the p10 yet for reasons I forgot, but I think you should. The eco you have with 10 or 12 vils is almost the same, yet the speed makes the big difference.
This is NOT a do or die rush, like tubruk is trying to imply. You don't have to rush at all, just keep pressure. I'm fine when they build behind their TC, I'll just enjoy the map control while massing and making vils from both TCs, yes, that is not so hard to do. Claiming otherwise means that you played it wrong or lack the ability to be precise in the very first minutes.
But I'll say it one last time: I don't think Ports are OP, and the higher your rank, the "easier" it is to play under pressure, still, good luck being boxed in so early. I haven't lost a single game with this strat yet vs players that can beat me in other match-ups and I play with horrbible command lag causing the most wierd things to happens... heck, most of the games I even say what I'll do so I'm not even counting on the surprise effect.
Try this in QS and you will see why it has the 'lame'-effect. People will flame you for aging so fast and running around with 10 musks and 8 xbows in your base so early. I took a while before the Iro fast age up was considdered lame, but once unveiled, it was the top strat. On maps like rockies, Gplains, Pampas etc, the p10 truly shines... on Deccan it's pure madness

I've tried some dutch lately too, and that 100 wood is huge early on, def when you have the 300 wood start. Dutch would be better off with fixed starting crates like China, 200 wood is best imo, a 100 wood start was terrible (before fp1.2) but 300 wood (which you'll have in more than 50% of the games) is a bit too strong.