3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

General Discussion about Age of Empires III: Definitive Edition

Moderators: Global Moderator, Age Moderator

User avatar
Kaiser_von_Nuben
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:40 pm
Location: New York, NY USA

3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

Hi everyone. I like 3v3s. You can find out why if you read my massive post "Kaiser on 2v2s" in the General Strategy section. But basically it's because you can really divvy up the work in a 3v3 and it can be very satisfying to be part of a well-oiled machine.

In 3v3s, though, I have two major schools of thought. First, you can be cohesive, meaning you keep your army together with all your teammates. This is a true team experience, where you try to grind the enemy army down, divide him and conquer him bit by bit. The risk is that you leave your bases open to raids. The advantage is that if one of your opponents splits off and tries to raid, your 3 armies will easily beat the other 2, so the other guy can raid all he wants while you torch his entire base. In a straight-up 3v3 battle, nobody raids, and all 6 armies slug it out; micro and good unit choices decide the day.

In the second approach, you can hold the line with 2 armies, while you go off raiding with the 3rd. I commonly do this when I play Germany, and I've been in many games where the Sioux do this admirably. This is also called the "confuse, weaken and demoralize them to death" approach. The risk is that your enemies will stay together and push on your allies while you are off patrolling some distant gold mine or pine tree. But the advantages are obvious: You can wipe out huge numbers of vils, hampering your enemies' abilities to continue fighting you effectively. Also, because cav is so mobile, you can raid, then respond to your allies' call for help if their battle is not going well. This happens a lot, and the raider gets all the credit. Not only does he kill vils, but then he sweeps in, kills 40 strelets and lets the allies push ahead. Very satisfying when it works. :D

So what do you think? Is cohesion or raiding the better plan? There are counters to both, but I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this topic, since we all play so many team games.
"The German Army will not stand for it!"

-Colonel Bockner, King Solomon's Mines (1985)
User avatar
I__CHAOS__I
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 am
Location: ??

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by I__CHAOS__I »

for me, it comes down to how efficient one can fend off raids.
at our level (lets call it "intermediate") raids can be devastating, simply because we react too late or we're too focussed on creeping that big treasure. Also, we tend to panic and screw up when we see a few cav around our base. At higher levels, you mostly see players build up strong eco's while massing one type of unit, I think because experts can easily avoid damage from raids and take advantage of the situation.
Image
Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness. - Sophocles
Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient. - Aristotle
User avatar
Aravinthan
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 2:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Aravinthan »

I usually 99% of the time, raid in 3v3 as sioux. Sioux are just so Op to raid!!! And plus with the 2 huts card in age 2, wile you raid you can have a decent number of vils with a ton of food = Fire pit with fertility dance, like that you outboom ur ennemis. THen, you guesssed it : Op axe riders + Op siege dance = gg
A master Piece done by cleeduz
Image
User avatar
GeneralMichael
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:26 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Steam: MDSamurai12

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by GeneralMichael »

I would say it depends on the civs, for example if you can get spain in there going with 10 missionaries spain has an easy time holding off 2 enemy armies while 1 ally goes to raid. Though if you don't have spain, souix, or germany I would advise not to raid, especially if your playing the aztecs and they have a lot of pumas
Image

Image
Blackadderthe4th
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1178
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:01 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Blackadderthe4th »

Well it depends if you're depending on the Sioux or raiding player to provide anti cav and he takes it upon himself to go raid like a noob and the enemy sweeps in wipes out your army with cav and its gg. This has happened to me many times with Sioux allies. Sioux players always go off glory hunting leaving you to do all the grunt work and if the enemy have their act together they simply wipe you out with the Sioux player saying "hold on I'm coming," as if their appearance to survey the slaughter of you defenseless and outnumbered troops will do any good.
User avatar
Kaiser_von_Nuben
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:40 pm
Location: New York, NY USA

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

[quote=""Blackadderthe4th""]Well it depends if you're depending on the Sioux or raiding player to provide anti cav and he takes it upon himself to go raid like a noob and the enemy sweeps in wipes out your army with cav and its gg. This has happened to me many times with Sioux allies. Sioux players always go off glory hunting leaving you to do all the grunt work and if the enemy have their act together they simply wipe you out with the Sioux player saying "hold on I'm coming," as if their appearance to survey the slaughter of you defenseless and outnumbered troops will do any good.[/quote]

Haha, this is exactly the risk I tried to describe in "approach #2." If the raids come up short and leave you with 2 armies to face 3 opponents, it's done.
Last edited by Kaiser_von_Nuben on Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The German Army will not stand for it!"

-Colonel Bockner, King Solomon's Mines (1985)
lordandcount
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:03 pm
Contact:

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by lordandcount »

quite often when I play a raid civ I will go raiding with a part of my cav (5-10), it is still effective, but when they attack I still got an army.
Image
NEO_CrAz3n wrote: L&C is sorta the N3O police.
I'm the most annoying officer
User avatar
GeneralMichael
N3O Member
N3O Member
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:26 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Steam: MDSamurai12

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by GeneralMichael »

[quote=""Blackadderthe4th""]Well it depends if you're depending on the Sioux or raiding player to provide anti cav and he takes it upon himself to go raid like a noob and the enemy sweeps in wipes out your army with cav and its gg. This has happened to me many times with Sioux allies. Sioux players always go off glory hunting leaving you to do all the grunt work and if the enemy have their act together they simply wipe you out with the Sioux player saying "hold on I'm coming," as if their appearance to survey the slaughter of you defenseless and outnumbered troops will do any good.[/quote]

That hold on I'm coming part brought up a bad memory. I was playing a 3v3 nr 40min treaty game where I ended up fighting the Dutch and some other civ as spain while 1 of my allies fought the 3rd guy and our last guy who was france had only 2 or 3 cuirs as his hole army and was like "hold on I'm coming to help" when I was telling him to make an army since I was getting pushed back slowly to my base. I eventually gave up when they reached my base's walls and my french ally had finally had 3 cuirs start to ride to my aid to help fight over about 250 fully upgraded units
Image

Image
User avatar
joe4holly
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 1720
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:16 am
Location: Southampton

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by joe4holly »

[quote=""lordandcount""]quite often when I play a raid civ I will go raiding with a part of my cav (5-10), it is still effective, but when they attack I still got an army.[/quote]

I agree with this. For sioux raid with 4ar,5br and WC. The ar will get in the way while the br use there fast rate of fire to wipe out the villgers.
User avatar
Soccerman771
N3O Officer
N3O Officer
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Sachse, Texas (near Dallas)
Contact:

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Soccerman771 »

I play 99% 3v3's. This comes down to the civ matchup and believe it or not - the map.

Big, open maps like everyone's favorite Great Plains is great for raiding. Hunts are spread out, nice open spaces, etc.

Do like L&C said and don't raid with all your army, raid with part of your cav while the rest of your three armies. Usually use a cav shipment to raid, 5 cossacks, 3 hussars, 7 steppes, etc.
jtackel@hotmail.com

"Do you know how difficult it is to micro Napalm?" - Lazy_Tuga

"This isn't going to work. I've picked a water deck and there isn't even a pond on this map." - Blackadderthe4th
User avatar
Tatltael
Major
Major
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:28 am

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Tatltael »

if youre going to be sioux and raid with your entire army, its probably good to let your allies know and have them back off the fb alittle. assuming this you need to make sure you do some nasty raids, otherwise your team will be down 1 FB :D
User avatar
Aravinthan
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 2:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Aravinthan »

I raid with my full army, and it always destroys the enemy eco. If they decide to attack my allies, my cav get there even before the fight has started, thanks to the wc...
Like soccer said, big open maps as gp is my fav kinds of maps
A master Piece done by cleeduz
Image
BenS64
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:29 pm
Location: Bloody England

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by BenS64 »

I also agree with Lord because if you raid with parts of your army, that can hurt your enemys eco which will slow down them gtting their military out. But on the other hand if you use your whole army and they attack your fb and your cav is the anti cav and they have cav, that could also cause problems.
User avatar
Heyco
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Heyco »

[quote=""BenS64""]I also agree with Lord because if you raid with parts of your army, that can hurt your enemys eco which will slow down them gtting their military out. But on the other hand if you use your whole army and they attack your fb and your cav is the anti cav and they have cav, that could also cause problems.[/quote]

That's why I never send my whole army for raiding.. :-P
User avatar
Kaiser_von_Nuben
Honorary Member
Honorary Member
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:40 pm
Location: New York, NY USA

Re: 3v3s - Raiding or Staying Together... What's Better?

Post by Kaiser_von_Nuben »

It's tricky. I must admit that at times I use my entire army for raiding. You can destroy an entire player's econ if you catch them unawares, but there is the risk that they'll push on your allies at that moment. On the other hand, the mere sight on 35 uhlans running through the hinterlands usually so flusters the opposition that they cannot truly focus on fighting your allies. After all, if they don't attend to their bases, all their vils could be lost.

As I always say, however, it's vital to scout first before deciding whether it's worth the risk to send off an entire army.
"The German Army will not stand for it!"

-Colonel Bockner, King Solomon's Mines (1985)
Post Reply