How to "fix" Japan

[Soccerman771]

Ok this may sound like your typical nerf Japan thread, but I hope not.

How would you have ES really fix Japan without making them UP (ala the Germany nerf in 'nilla) if they were to do another patch?

My suggestions:

1. Don't allow the monks to build the shrines, vil's only.
2. All Ashi-Yumi upgrades from cards move to Age III.
3. Shrine gather rate slight nerf, but not to the previous level.
4. Bushido tech allows 8 instead of 10.
5. Reduce Ashi speed to normal musk speed.
6. Maybe only 1 monk instead of 2 and make their treasure killing ability a little better?

Any other thoughts?

India needs a nerf as well, but mostly I think the desert terror card needs to go to Age III or maybe an 'early goons' type card needs to be required.

[Kaiser_von_Nuben]

There is nothing wrong with "nerf Japan" threads; it has to be done. The concern is going about it in a fair way. I was not around for the early Germany nerf (I didn't start playing AOE3 until Summer 2007), but I hear that nerf represents what should NOT happen when revising a universally-reviled, so-called "OP" civ.

I agree with all your suggestions, Soccer. I think it might also be smart to nerf clubs in some way; maybe they could be accessible after picking isolation at the consulate, then you have to pay for them IN RESOURCES at the barracks.

Shrines need work. Maybe we could reduce the bonus from the heavenly kami card (ie, reduce boost to 33% or even 40%). And I think the toshugu should not give such a big boost, either, nor should it provide free 20 pop. I really like the no-monk-shrine-building idea. That would prevent them from stealing all the bison herds by 4:40 on Great Plains and other hunt-heavy maps.

Everybody hates ashis; the danger, though, is making them into just another musketeer. Part of the problem is the upgrades. The other part is the consulate. Personally I think isolation is hands down the most OP Asian alliance out there (if you can call isolating yourself an 'alliance :? ) Between the two--and possibly with Golden Pavilion--ashis can get 39 damage in colonial. Something must be done here--muskets should not easily beat archers and xbows. Moving the card to age III would be good, but the other stuff would still give ashis a huge attack. Maybe we could lower the BASE attack to, say, 22 or 23 from 26. That would make all the upgrades less devastating, but still allow ashis to be superior to all other muskets (commensurate with their increased cost). Or you could nerf them even more and reduce their cost. Who knows

I know this is getting long; I have other issues (nagis, unraidability, attack-boosting daimyos) but the last one I'll discuss here is yumis. Let's face it: When you get the upper ages with a full shrine econ, all you need to do is spam daimyo-backed yumis with isolation and the 20% attack card into a 40-50 man mass and--wham--you can beat non-Japanese players 1v3. Perhaps we could at least reduce the 20% to 15% (like they did for ashi in 1.1) or even abolish all Yumi attack upgrades... after all, the Brits don't get Longbow attack upgrades, and you need a card just to get them beyond veteran level. Maybe the original programmers knew that if they did provide an attack bonus card for Longbows, they would be just as OP as the yumis are now. Looking forward to everyone else's thoughts.

[Soccerman771]

[quote=""Kaiser_von_Nuben""]Everybody hates ashis; the danger, though, is making them into just another musketeer. Part of the problem is the upgrades. The other part is the consulate. Personally I think isolation is hands down the most OP Asian alliance out there (if you can call isolating yourself an 'alliance :? ) Between the two--and possibly with Golden Pavilion--ashis can get 39 damage in colonial. Something must be done here--muskets should not easily beat archers and xbows. Moving the card to age III would be good, but the other stuff would still give ashis a huge attack. Maybe we could lower the BASE attack to, say, 22 or 23 from 26. That would make all the upgrades less devastating, but still allow ashis to be superior to all other muskets (commensurate with their increased cost). Or you could nerf them even more and reduce their cost. Who knows
[/quote]

Hit the nail on the head with this one. I'll have to admit though that they must be careful with the ashi b/c this is Japan's really only direct counter to cav in age II.. Sam's are just too expensive this early.

There are too many military boost shipments available age II for Japan.

[kingchrisII]

what was wrong with japan in the first place, i never saw them as a UP civ ??

they need to get civs into the state of brits/french where they require little or no tweaking.

Im not too god on the nerfing front, but shrines go back to a little bit above than before, and maybe the acrds for ashis/yumi to age 3 and lower base attack of BOTH.

[Palehorse]

I thought they were a walkover before (vs. Spain), which points out the unmentioned problem - they got boosted while other civs got the shaft in that patch.

1. Split the difference on the shrine rate.
b. Peg Ashi speed to musk speed.
III Allow vils (not military) to kill (but not gather from) shrined animals

[Soccerman771]

[quote=""Palehorse""]I thought they were a walkover before (vs. Spain), which points out the unmentioned problem - they got boosted while other civs got the shaft in that patch.

1. Split the difference on the shrine rate.
b. Peg Ashi speed to musk speed.
III Allow vils (not military) to kill (but not gather from) shrined animals[/quote]

You would think that a cannon firing at a shrine would probably kill at least some of the animals nearby...

[Palehorse]

Yeah, sheesh. Or maybe, just sieging a shrine scatters the animals for a minute. . . or. . . something.

[Tatltael]

lower shrine gather rather
lower ashi hp
lower yumi base attack
make samurai a tiny bit better against cavalry
lower nagi base hp or attack
lower shrine hp by a few hundred points

that is all :]

[TheRam]

As a Japanese player (sometimes) I find a lot of these "tweaks" very extreme.
1) Ashis should NEVER have their speed reduced, it is what makes them a specialised unit, that is out of the question.
2) The idea that explorers can't build shrines is ridiculous, imagine trapsing your villagers across the map to do a shrine boom, they are slower - you lose out on gathering and it makes a Japanese unique bonus (shrine gathering) almost worthless, and in the long run would mean they get out eco-ed due to their villager cap.
3)Naginata - currently they don't have much HP as it is, seriously, in practice they get decimated by everything (assuming your opponent is at least NEAR your tech level) that they don't counter, they are lancer cavalry, not generic hussar stuff, so of course they obliterate a lot of the colonial army, but if you're facing a Japanese player and you build a counter to Nags and destroy them, that is a HUGE loss on the Japanese players part, and people should take the initiative here.
4)Samurai do need a boost vs cavalry, and they should be less capable to spam and explode stuff incredibly fast (they're almost as OP as Gemdarme late game if used correctly)
5)Shrine gather rates, they do require a bit of a nerf, possibly, but have you actually played as Japan? I mean, effectively you can't get any worthwhile resources from them until you have a decent amount of wood - right? Well try getting a decent amount of wood without sticking your shrines on that resource, as you can't afford villagers when you need so much gold/food for their troops. This generally ends up with a surplus of wood (wood for shrines, more shrines and it grows hugely) - I regularly have 1k wood spare if I start on a 300w map in 2v2s, but as you can only have shrines on 1 resource, managing them to get a viable economy boost that effects the gameplay seriously doesn't really happen, especially at the lower levels where peoples macro isn't as good.
6) Making upgrade cards fortress age would make too many of Japs worthwhile cards age 3, and would mean the Japanese player loses out, and would be too great a nerf in my opinion.

I'm not trying to defend Japan as an average civ, but to be honest I've played Japan a lot, and I've played against them a lot - and the trick to beating them is really just constant pressure. They need a nerf, or other civs need a boost, that is true, but the way these nerf Japan threads are built it seems more like a "make Japan as UP as Portugeuse, or make them a boring euro-civ". I like the diversity, so I think instead of nerfing Japan there should be more emphasis on bringing the lower civs onto an even level. Seriously, playing Japan is smooth, you can think about your moves and don't have to worry too much about screwing up everything over something trivial (as you can do, oh-so-easily with for example Ports)
Japan play like how I believe the game should play, they have strong counters and if you screw up they'll dominate you, other civs should be brought up to their level.
Thats my five-hundred and eighty four cents, and I'd like to point out it's 5am here.
Done.

[I__CHAOS__I]

I've played japan in many unrated and they are simply too strong and easy to play.

- no consulate in age I
- nerf the shrine wonder & heavenly kami card
- remove the teleport ability -.-
- fix ashi and yumi, both need a small nerf

[Sporting_Lisbon]

It's rather simple to balance Japan tbh:

Shrines back to old rates but the boost in gather with each hunt should be better.

Toshogu and H. Kami should affect the hunts gather rate instead of the base rate so that you can't spam non hunt shrines and go away with it.

Shrine hp nerfed to 1200 hp, samurai vs cav boosted to 2.25 instead of 1.75.

Japan was fine when they're eco wasn't good but the ashis were OP, now the ashis aren't as OP but the eco is OP. If we get a ''normal'' eco the problem should be solved.

[Blackadderthe4th]

[quote=""Cammel""]As a Japanese player (sometimes) I find a lot of these "tweaks" very extreme.
1) Ashis should NEVER have their speed reduced, it is what makes them a specialised unit, that is out of the question.
2) The idea that explorers can't build shrines is ridiculous, imagine trapsing your villagers across the map to do a shrine boom, they are slower - you lose out on gathering and it makes a Japanese unique bonus (shrine gathering) almost worthless, and in the long run would mean they get out eco-ed due to their villager cap.
[/quote]

Have to agree with Camel here. When I saw the only let villagers build shrines I could see ES doing this and could see the death of Japan as well. I always thought the Jap eco pre-patch was ok and on water maps I could out boom almost any civ. Return their eco to a pre-patch state should be enough of a nerf without killing their individuality and making them another Euro civ.

[Soccerman771]

I thought the shrines were only there to balance their late-game eco due to no factories?

If their monks can build thier houses, why not let the other monks/war chiefs/explorers build houses as well?

[Sporting_Lisbon]

I thought the shrines were only there to balance their late-game eco due to no factories?

No, shrines being good enough is why jap only have 75 vils.

If their monks can build thier houses, why not let the other monks/war chiefs/explorers build houses as well?

Because the houses are shrines and not houses, and the shrines need hunts while the houses don't. It's supposed to let you build outside your base instead of just turtling.

[Kaiser_von_Nuben]

If Japan continues to benefit from the unique shrine economy, why shouldn't they be forced to take a greater risk by using only villagers to construct them? Good Japanese players begin their shrine boom in discovery, when there is no danger of losing villies. Villies could walk around with the explorers and claim all the good herds before their opponent can actually move out and hunt them. I think this would be a fair risk to impose on Japan given they receive a huge bonus from their shrine econ. And it would make them at least potentially raidable if the Japanese player elects to continue seeking out herds with villagers out in the open in colonial.

Monks are really hard to kill because they can just cast their "poof" spell and elude any danger. That is a very special ability that no other civ even remotely has. It allows them to shrine boom without risking villagers, and if the monk gets in trouble, he just "disappears." On the whole, I think it would be fair to take away the shrine-building ability from monks.

Cammel, I completely understand your concerns. I for one do not want to eviscerate Japan to Portuguese levels. But I think balancing the shrine boom is the main concern because it is such a watertight, relatively-risk-free economy that no other civ has so early in the game. India's double wood trickle is a tad unbalanced also imo because it allows for risk-free villie production, but that is for a different thread :-P