@ my USA friends

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luukje
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@ my USA friends

Post by luukje »

I saw the latest pic of Michael More (capitalism a love story) this weekend and I endured 3 hours of Henry Rollins talking about your beautiful country. Both were sell outs. And both were very enjoyable and a must see if you have the chance.
They both had the same message, the last 8 years have been hell, the US of A are at a definite low as a country, as a superpower, as a good place to live in, but things are changing now, for the better, was their opinion.
I was wondered on how the fortunes of this country all across the ocean can interest and even move so many people ove rhere.
And do you guys feel the same over there?
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deadhanddan
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by deadhanddan »

USA still crummy atm



word is the economy is picking up but i have yet to see a significant change. feels the same as last year tbh
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by Soccerman771 »

I think it's at best ironic that Moore is against capitalism, yet takes advantage of it to get fat and rich.

Don't kid yourselves though, it wasn't that great when GWB got elected. The past year has done more damage than the past 8 combined. Most people forget (or don't want to admit) that 6 of the 8 years of the Bush Presidency has tremendous job and economy growth.

It'll get better in Nov. 2012. :)
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by huGGy »

Sometimes you need changes that hurt to get a better overall situation.
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by wicked_assassin »

The economic situation isn't not the accomplishment of a president. That is the system of capitalism. The economy is for the most part out of control of the goverment. Blaiming obama for the crap ass economy situation is foolish. The economic growth of several years was build on air and that methaporic buble just snapped during his first year.

It's like saying that when gwb would be still in office their wouldn't be a crisis or it would be less worser.
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deadhanddan
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by deadhanddan »

[quote=""wicked_assassin""]The economic situation isn't not the accomplishment of a president. That is the system of capitalism. The economy is for the most part out of control of the goverment. Blaiming obama for the **** *** economy situation is foolish. The economic growth of several years was build on air and that methaporic buble just snapped during his first year.

It's like saying that when gwb would be still in office their wouldn't be a crisis or it would be less worser.[/quote] lol you actually think obama's reform plans will help the american eco? his health care reform plans alone had a projected 10 year deficit at best.....

numerous factors are involved in current eco fumble , some bush , some clinton even , but saying obama isn't contributing to the overall is foolish as well
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by wicked_assassin »

Have i said that?

It's always a given that political leaders who reign during economic bad times get hated. That's a general rule in politics, no matter in what country you are. my point was: it has no use to praise GWB like soccer did because he could have done as worse or worser.

Perhaps my view is biased because i truely dispise GWB.
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Post by Sporting_Lisbon »

Dunno about economics and stuff but I expected more from Obama in Copenhagen.
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Post by wicked_assassin »

Only thing i know is that copenhagen was probably a sort of horse traiding worser then the elecetion of the eu president.
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Post by RascalJones »

The only thing I've really figured out, is that Republican or Democrat, "Conservative" or "Liberal", at the end of a day a politician is a politician. He will lie, cheat, steal to get whatever he wants. The real strength of our country is not the politicians and politcial and/or economic ideals. It's when the people in our country stop thinking about themselves first, and put others first that we make the strongest impression.

I read this opinion piece yesterday. I thought it was pretty good.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/23/g ... index.html
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by wicked_assassin »

[quote=""RascalJones""]The only thing I've really figured out, is that Republican or Democrat, "Conservative" or "Liberal", at the end of a day a politician is a politician. He will lie, cheat, steal to get whatever he wants. [/quote]

this is the reason i voted blanco on last elections
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luukje
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by luukje »

hmmmz you guys havent seen the movie yet.
II didn’t want this thread to be about Bush, obama, etc, I wanted to say how weird it is people all over the world are fascinated with the US (and go watch the movie, you don’t have to agree, just let it make you think about some things).

About the movie/ this discussion Michael Moore points out several facts:

1. Capitalism was good for the US up until 1970-1980. Loads of jobs, workers were well paid, enterprises made good profits.
2. With the crisis in the seventies, and the election of Carter, a strange coalition was formed, between industry leaders, washington lobbyist, republican and (some) decocratic politicians, with the aim of protecting the interests of the rich and wealthy in america. From that moment on a real propaganda war has been flood over the people on the US, making them believe capitalism was the source of their welfare, and not the freedom, intelligence, bellingerence, efforts of the American people. It convinced a lot of people that support for capitalism was the only way to go forward (again) and it confused a lot of other people.

However, does this group has any interest in the wellbeing of the US of A and it’s citizens? No, it is only aiming at making it’s members rich. Richer. Richest. Greed is their motivation.
That group has made people believe Ronald Reagan was a good president. That GWB was a good president.
The movie isn’t about bush or Reagan at all.
They were just dummies. Puppets.
It looks at the people behind the screens, who broke so called trade barriers, union power, consumer protection, worker protection, … What looked like little decisions at the time, turned out to be things that made the bigger get bigger and let the small people/businesses drown. They let Reagan do his thing about communism, they let Bush senior make war in Iraq, Junior could have his war to and rant about abortion.
After all, this keeps the people busy and the Military industry busy.

3. This eventually led to the crisis in the housing market, the banks,… And yep, some richies lost some money, but even then, they managed to let the government save their *ass-ess* with ordinary US tax dollars. And now they have all but recuperated their money, and the rest of the world/us is even more loaded in debts.

Just ask yourself:

- why are some us, even I sometimes, defending a system that let’s people make outragous bonuses at one side and takes families homes at the other side.
- why are we obsessed with popstar/sports/celebrity culture and willing to buy their cd’s, tickets, but not willing to pay for someone elses healthcare
- why are we defending the rich and blaming the poor?

Because it is capitalism and in the end the world will be a better place for all?????

That’s what they have made us believe.
Just look around and open your eyes.

Ive seen most of Michael Moores movies and most of the time he’s focussing on some weird American customs, and defending the small man against the big corps.
This one is different.
It really makes you think about how did we get here.
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by wicked_assassin »

[quote=""luukje""]hmmmz you guys havent seen the movie yet.

However, does this group has any interest in the wellbeing of the US of A and it’s citizens? No, it is only aiming at making it’s members rich. Richer. Richest. Greed is their motivation.
[/quote]

Do you think it's any different with any other system? Comunisme, socialisme, europeas hybrid system of captilasme and socialisme or the us pure capitalisme have all that specific flaw.

Their is no ideal system, evrything is in shades of gray and nothing is black or white.
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luukje
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by luukje »

There is a difference, because I personally always believed capitalism was closest to human nature. It appeals to our greed, to our self interest and I feel that is alot stronger then the community feeling within the huamnd race. We are not ants or bees, but individuals. And capitalism appeals to the individual.

But at this moment, it has become flawed and is being misused.

You are right comparing it to former communism, as a system where those with the power, abuse the system to keep that power.

The paradox is, we are capitalist out of free choice? or not?
If the system doenst look after our interest, why do we/the majority still support it?

Thats wahta the movie and the henry rollins performance were really about let's think again on some issues and make the changes where they are needed. But think.
And dont let the biggest advocates of the system - those who have the power/wealth - misguide you.
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Re: @ my USA friends

Post by huGGy »

Pure Capitilism nowadays is not what Adam Smith thought of it. Politicians are politicians for sure, but the good thing in democracy is that everybody has a vote and right to speak. Let's say Obama (or anybody else) got voted by 60% of the US people. That includes that 40% did not vote for him. As a politician he can't do things too straight and risk that his doings offend 40% of the US people who voted. That would be 60 Million people (i dont know the exact numbers, just as an example) who want something different. You always have to keep that in mind as a politician. Also, it's not said what is really the best way. We can't even say that democracy is the best way for all countries in the world. People in the far east or so have a total different culture. So how are we to say that they have to do things the way we do them? All we can do is to say what fits us, as an individual, best. And all the pure capatilism guys (i don't mean any of you guys here, just general speaking) should keep in mind that capitilism does not work without each other. The problem is that pure Capitilism is, like Darwin would say, some kind of survival of the fittest. So it's destroying itself if you don't work against this self-destruction. Another very important point is the huge difference between rich and poor and it's getting bigger and bigger. If you don't stop it, you'll have bigger problems than debating about pro and contra about capitilism or not. *cough* Germany before 1933 *cough*
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